# Dollhouse premier - Feb 13, 2009 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 12, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613 "2009-02-12T23:54:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/81 "2009-02-15T11:18:31Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I don’t understand this critique. The setup for the brain transfer thing is all or nothing. You can’t just transfer a skill set, you can only transfer a whole personality. And if they were legit, where would they get the people/bodies to use? Well, in a capitalist society we have this thing called “currency” that one exchanges for goods and services. 😉 So you’re suggesting that in the current premise they kidnap experts in everything from around the world, hook them up to their brain copy machine, and then dump them back on the streets? That’s just going to make them more noticeable. They’re not killing them since the hostage negotiator they used committed suicide after they used her. If they’re public all they have to do is offer a fifty thousand dollars for a few minutes of people’s time (which presumably is what they do now anyway except not tell the expert what they’re doing which of course only introduces needless complications). ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/82 "2009-02-15T11:19:25Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I don’t understand this critique. The setup for the brain transfer thing is all or nothing. You can’t just transfer a skill set, you can only transfer a whole personality. And if they were legit, where would they get the people/bodies to use? Convicted criminals? If it’s good enough for the Imperium of Man, it should be good enough for these guys. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/83 "2009-02-15T11:21:19Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > Well, in a capitalist society we have this thing called “currency” that one exchanges for goods and services. > > 😉 > > So you’re suggesting that in the current premise they kidnap experts in everything from around the world, hook them up to their brain copy machine, and then dump them back on the streets? That’s just going to make them more noticeable. They’re not killing them since the hostage negotiator they used committed suicide after they used her. If they’re public all they have to do is offer a fifty thousand dollars for a few minutes of people’s time. But where would they get Ecco? ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/84 "2009-02-15T11:22:58Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Convicted criminals? If it’s good enough for the Imperium of Man, it should be good enough for these guys. You know that this would not actually be legal, right? I don’t think you should blame the show for not making up a world with different laws. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/85 "2009-02-15T11:32:17Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > But where would they get Ecco? They hire her. Simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/86 "2009-02-15T11:41:53Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > There is a much _larger_ framework which the show could address, but is totally ignoring. It seems to me that the company could operate _legitimately_ by offering people the ability to learn an advanced skillset in a few seconds. You want to be a doctor? Pay the company some money, have the knowledge of a top medical expert planted in your skull. You then set the stage for conflict between folks who’ve come by their knowledge the hard way, and folks who’ve had it implanted in them. You can also create moral dilemmas by having characters who’re opposed to the “instant” education methods, but stand to gain a great deal financially by allowing themselves to be scanned so that others can make use of their knowledge. I’ll add one other possible objection to the others that have already been raised - it seems likely to me, though it hasn’t been said so outright, that maybe one person in ten million has the right brain structure/chemistry for the brain wipe/implantation gear to work. (Or maybe not quite that rare, but something along those lines.) How they find and test these people isn’t clear. That’s why they went after Caroline to become ‘Echo’ - though clearly wholesome good looks don’t hurt either. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/87 "2009-02-15T11:46:41Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > You know that this would not actually be legal, right? I know, otherwise I would have made reference to something other than an over-the-top dystopia. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/88 "2009-02-15T11:49:50Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > They hire her. Simple as that. - How many people do you think would agree to that? She can’t even use her money. - It would probably still be illegal. Slavery is also illegal, even if the slave agrees to it, I would suspect. Assisted suicide is illegal too. - Maybe only very few people are suited to be dolls, and those few that are don’t agree to do it for pay. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/89 "2009-02-15T11:50:52Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I know, otherwise I would have made reference to something other than an over-the-top dystopia. Ah, ok. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/90 "2009-02-15T11:58:15Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > - How many people do you think would agree to that? She can’t even use her money. > > - It would probably still be illegal. Slavery is also illegal, even if the slave agrees to it, I would suspect. Assisted suicide is illegal too. > > - Maybe only very few people are suited to be dolls, and those few that are don’t agree to do it for pay. Did you miss the first few minutes of the episode? She signed on for a five year contract. And while imprinting obviously makes the new mind dominant they don’t completely blank out afterward; she was aware of where she was and what she had done before they had given her the party girl persona. So, not slavery, they would get to use the money, and definitely not suicide. Yeah there may not be people lining up around the block to take part in the program but the flexibility offered (remember that this isn’t a 1:1 copy; the implanted personality is a composite as they stated in the show) means that the company could offer quite a bit of money to their potential employees. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/91 "2009-02-15T12:15:34Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > Did you miss the first few minutes of the episode? She signed on for a five year contract. And while imprinting obviously makes the new mind dominant they don’t completely blank out afterward; she was aware of where she was and what she had done before they had given her the party girl persona. > > So, not slavery, they would get to use the money, and definitely not suicide. Yeah there may not be people lining up around the block to take part in the program but the flexibility offered (remember that this isn’t a 1:1 copy; the implanted personality is a composite as they stated in the show) means that the company could offer quite a bit of money to their potential employees. What? Sorry man. I totally missed that part. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/92 "2009-02-15T12:31:17Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > Did you miss the first few minutes of the episode? She signed on for a five year contract. And while imprinting obviously makes the new mind dominant they don’t completely blank out afterward; she was aware of where she was and what she had done before they had given her the party girl persona. (Rewatched the first few minutes.) Caroline talked about not having a choice, Olivia was talking about ‘taking care of the consequences.’ This doesn’t sound like a perfectly above-board contract - it might be something relatively benign, like the company helping her out of legal trouble of her own making to sweeten the deal, or it might be that they framed her or blackmailed her on purpose. Not sure yet. In terms of the ‘party girl persona’ - again, we don’t have all the information, so conclusions could be drawn in a number of directions. I was assuming that whatever she remembered at that point, it wasn’t her own past. What she was doing with Matt I really don’t know - it doesn’t seem like he was a paying client, (I doubt his friends would have raised the money for him,) and I’m not sure if it makes sense to give the Actives time off outside of the Dollhouse, in character, when they wouldn’t remember it. Maybe this was just tying up the strings of another assignment… was the Company hired to find out something about the guy?? ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/93 "2009-02-15T12:34:47Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > [TVTropes links for Women in Refrigerators](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WomenInRefrigerators), named after something that happened in Green Lantern (a comic I’m not familiar with). You know, I’m starting to think that one could program a bot to do a random crawl over interlinked pages on TVtropes, and come up with an entire script as a result. > [@Erdosain](#): > > Anyway, I will continue watching because I am a sucker for Eliza Dushku, but I was a little disappointed in the premise of the show. Why is there secret, presumably multi-million dollar corporation to provide impossibly high-tech prostitutes/assassins/negotiators? And if they can be programmed to do anything, why on Earth are they being used as prostitutes? Umm, you know they already have those, right? For much cheaper and you don’t have to do impossibly expensive memory wipes. I can’t help thinking that the prostitution angle is going to squick out some potential viewers, so hopefully they’ll drop it in favor of more ass-kicking type roles. Yes, I couldn’t really buy the central conceit, either. If you’ve got that technology, there’s got to be a more profitable and less high-risk way of utilizing it, like letting people go on holiday as another person or something like that. Plus, there’s one thing I never quite could figure out about those ‘secret shadowy agency’ kinda deals, and that’s how their clients find them – if they can, one should think that assorted government agencies could, too. Also, for a secret shadowy agency, they were seriously light on security and stunningly amateurish in their operations. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/94 "2009-02-15T14:28:03Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Anyway, I will continue watching because I am a sucker for Eliza Dushku, but I was a little disappointed in the premise of the show. Why is there secret, presumably multi-million dollar corporation to provide impossibly high-tech prostitutes/assassins/negotiators? And if they can be programmed to do anything, why on Earth are they being used as prostitutes? Umm, you know they already have those, right? For much cheaper and you don’t have to do impossibly expensive memory wipes. I can’t help thinking that the prostitution angle is going to squick out some potential viewers, so hopefully they’ll drop it in favor of more ass-kicking type roles. Isn’t that pretty much what it comes down to? They already have people who can pretend to be other people for you. They are called “actors”. You can also hire escort services, mercenaries, negotiators, lawyers, butchers, bakers and candlestick makers for much cheaper than the millions or billions it must cost to implement some experimental mind transfer technology. And not to mention that it doesn’t change their physical body. IOW, you can implant Michael Jordan’s brain into Eliza Dushku’s body, but she isn’t going to be able to dunk like him. > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > If you’ve got that technology, there’s got to be a more profitable and less high-risk way of utilizing it, like letting people go on holiday as another person or something like that. Clearly you’ve never seen Total Recall > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Plus, there’s one thing I never quite could figure out about those ‘secret shadowy agency’ kinda deals, and that’s how their clients find them – if they can, one should think that assorted government agencies could, too. > Also, for a secret shadowy agency, they were seriously light on security and stunningly amateurish in their operations. Exactly. Everyone in the world can find these people on Craigs List, except the FBI guy from Battlestar Galactica. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/95 "2009-02-15T14:55:52Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > (Rewatched the first few minutes.) > > Caroline talked about not having a choice, Olivia was talking about ‘taking care of the consequences.’ This doesn’t sound like a perfectly above-board contract - it might be something relatively benign, like the company helping her out of legal trouble of her own making to sweeten the deal, or it might be that they framed her or blackmailed her on purpose. Not sure yet. > > In terms of the ‘party girl persona’ - again, we don’t have all the information, so conclusions could be drawn in a number of directions. I was assuming that whatever she remembered at that point, it wasn’t her own past. What she was doing with Matt I really don’t know - it doesn’t seem like he was a paying client, (I doubt his friends would have raised the money for him,) and I’m not sure if it makes sense to give the Actives time off outside of the Dollhouse, in character, when they wouldn’t remember it. Maybe this was just tying up the strings of another assignment… was the Company hired to find out something about the guy?? They were hired to give the guy a ‘perfect weekend’ - not sure if it was by the guy or someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/96 "2009-02-15T14:59:04Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > (Rewatched the first few minutes.) > What she was doing with Matt I really don’t know - it doesn’t seem like he was a paying client, (I doubt his friends would have raised the money for him,) and I’m not sure if it makes sense to give the Actives time off outside of the Dollhouse, in character, when they wouldn’t remember it. Maybe this was just tying up the strings of another assignment… was the Company hired to find out something about the guy?? The guy in the opening sequence, with the motorcycles and the party, was a paying client, which is why he explained her departure the way that he did. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/97 "2009-02-15T15:03:13Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Yes, I couldn’t really buy the central conceit, either. If you’ve got that technology, there’s got to be a more profitable and less high-risk way of utilizing it, like letting people go on holiday as another person or something like that. Plus, there’s one thing I never quite could figure out about those ‘secret shadowy agency’ kinda deals, and that’s how their clients find them – if they can, one should think that assorted government agencies could, too. > Also, for a secret shadowy agency, they were seriously light on security and stunningly amateurish in their operations. Sort of like how there are no large scale criminal organizations today involved in anything like human/drug/weapons/stolen goods smuggling? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/98 "2009-02-15T15:08:00Z")
> [@Kal](#): > > Crikey, this is Joe 90 with boobs. Exactly what I was going to post. The acting was a little less wooden, though. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/99 "2009-02-15T16:50:46Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Sort of like how there are no large scale criminal organizations today involved in anything like human/drug/weapons/stolen goods smuggling? :dubious: This is exactly the point I was thinking about wrt the posts about the unlikelihood of a shadowy organization using human beings in this way. There are white slavery operations all around the world, apparently operating with impunity in places like Russia, Central Europe, Mexico, the Middle East, Asia and Africa. It seems credible, given this fact, that a much smaller, more focussed organization, which uses much subtler tactics, could operate with impunity. (Note: I wonder about these widespread reports of white slavery, they remind me strongly of the white slavery panic at the turn of the 20th Century which turned out to be a chimera.) Anybody find a creepy similarity between the Dolllhouse plot and the plot of Hostel 2? The only difference is, in the case of the Dollhouse the people being vended by a shadowy organization are presumably not being put to uses that render them un-reusable. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613/100 "2009-02-15T16:52:36Z")
> [@mecaenas](#): > > I normally don’t like Joss Whedon but Firefly won me over, I thoroughly enjoyed it, except for Glau/River who pretty much ruins every scene she’s in. I couldn’t stand the character nor the actress. Other than that it was an enjoyable series so I’ll give Dollhouse a chance. Summer Glau wasn’t in the show. Maybe you’re thinking of Amy Acker? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-premier-feb-13-2009/485613.md?page=6)