# Domestic dogs versus Wolves **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 26, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028 "2005-10-26T17:48:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/21 "2005-10-26T22:50:51Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Willing, yes - but able? I recommend declining this engagement. Chows are very powerful, stocky dogs with loose neck skin that prevents an opponent from grabbing them by the neck and pinning them down, which is they typical dominance move. They are bred as working and guard dogs with a temperment (reserved and suspicious with people who are not part of the pack) to match. I knew a chow that was fearless, save for a terror of lightning, and he once literally tore through an oak door while left at home because of his terror. I’d have to agree with **David Simmons** ; wolves are evolved as pack predators, and their fighting within the pack is done only to established dominance and rarely to death or even serious injury. A chow, bull terrier, or wolfhound that has been bred and trained for fighting will have an edge over a wolf in both tools and temperment. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/22 "2005-10-26T23:09:11Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > I’d have to agree with **David Simmons** ; wolves are evolved as pack predators, and their fighting within the pack is done only to established dominance and rarely to death or even serious injury. A chow, bull terrier, or wolfhound that has been bred and trained for fighting will have an edge over a wolf in both tools and temperment. But a chow or bull terrier would not be recognized as a member of the wolf pack, so why would it matter? I’m not buying that argument. And note that you said “trained” for fighting. If that’s part of the criteria, then one might be able to train just about any large dog to take on a wolf. As for the [Pit Bull](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull), it’s not a very accurate term. > [@](#): > > A pit bull is a member of any of a number of breeds of dogs developed from the Old English Bulldog. Breeds recognized as pit bulls include the American Pit Bull Terrier and the American Staffordshire Terrier, although the name is also often used to refer to other breeds of similar characteristics, such as the American Bulldog and Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and mixed breeds that include any of these breeds. ---
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/23 "2005-10-26T23:39:24Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > Well, actually [Pit Bulls](http://www.pitbullregistry.com/Pit%20Bull%20History.htm) were bred to fight…bulls. The practice of “Bull Baiting” is described by The Perfect Master Himself in a discussion of [Bulldogs](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_004a.html). Now, the ability to mess up a bull goes a long way when messing up another dog, or a burglar, or an unwary cat; but that’s not what the dog was bred for. > > Now. The Chihuahua. That’s a dog bred _specifically_ for fighting other dogs in a pit setting. That would be called an ‘Hors D’oeuvres’. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/24 "2005-10-26T23:41:42Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > wolves are evolved as pack predators, and their fighting within the pack is done only to established dominance and rarely to death or even serious injury. OTOH, they must (as noted) fight other packs to defend their territory, and this can involve injury and death. They also routinely dispatch tough and determined prey. So they are no strangers to killing; indeed, in a real sense they are bred for it. > [@](#): > > A chow, bull terrier, or wolfhound that has been bred and trained for fighting will have an edge over a wolf in both tools and temperment. Googling suggests that a chow is typically 45 to 70 pounds - perhaps half the weight of a wolf. During their entire life, few chows will kill anything even a fraction the size of a wolf. A truly pugnatious chow is disproportionately likely not to survive & breed, given the requirement of fitting into human society. I see no edge in tools or temperament there. ---
**Author:** ![Jeanine\_Stevens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f08c70/32.png) [@Jeanine\_Stevens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeanine_Stevens)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/25 "2005-10-27T04:11:45Z")
I lived in an orange grove in CA for 12 years. While coyotes are not as big as wolves lots of people lost large dogs to them. A neighbor lost a 100 lb German Shepard to coyotes, each coyote probably only 70 lbs or less. These animals don’t attack singly, they attack in packs. Hence I should think a pack could take on quite large dogs. I’m assuming that you mean a one on one encounter? 😕 Jeanine ---
**Author:** ![Giant\_Spongess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@Giant\_Spongess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giant_Spongess)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/26 "2005-10-27T05:05:09Z")
Some dog breeds that protect herds from wolves actually do so by confusing them, not threatening them. They display all the wrong social signals, and drive them off by simply ignoring the wolves’ aggression displays and being inappropriately friendly. This type of dog is called a sheep-guarding dog, and they’ve had their aggressive tendencies bred out of them so that they don’t scare the sheep. Sorry, no online cite, I read it in a book last year while writing a research paper about the genetic differences between dogs and wolves (there are very little, by the way). ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/27 "2005-10-27T05:47:01Z")
you guys are leaving one huge factor out of this fight, wolves are incredibly intelligent compared to dogs, along the lines of a very smart dog being about the same as a really stupid wolf on the doggy iq test. that said the most obvious breeds being the already mentioned wolf hounds, the Irish Wolfhound is one big ass dog and is pretty much the reason there arent any wolves left in Ireland. it would certainly take a big enough dog or one lucky as hell little one to do the trick. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/28 "2005-10-27T06:01:42Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > wolves are incredibly intelligent compared to dogs, Do you have a cite for this? Everything I read claims the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Giant\_Spongess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@Giant\_Spongess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giant_Spongess)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/29 "2005-10-27T06:11:12Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? > Everything I read claims the opposite. It depends on whether or not they have been bred to keep their intelligence. In modern breeds, anything that has been bred solely for looks is highly unlikely to be intelligent, while working breeds have to be relatively intelligent in order to understand and follow commands. Dogs are basically neotenic wolves ($10 word: adults of a species looking and acting like their young. Dogs = overgrown puppies, in other words). Their senses are duller and usually their instincts are curtailed. So in terms of survival, they wouldn’t be as skillful. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/30 "2005-10-27T06:20:33Z")
[http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0212280/intelligence.htm](http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0212280/intelligence.htm) [http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/wolf\_personality.htm](http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/wolf_personality.htm) [http://www.wolfandwildlifestudies.com/learningsets.html](http://www.wolfandwildlifestudies.com/learningsets.html) and from this site [http://www.achievementinfo.com/2001ELA8/2001ELA8.34-41.html](http://www.achievementinfo.com/2001ELA8/2001ELA8.34-41.html) "6 Harry Frank also tested four dog puppies in the same experiments. The dogs did very poorly compared to the wolves. " while it does mention that this may be less about intelligence and more about dependency on humans in the next paragraph I have some trouble buying the explanation, when it comes to available food most animals wont wait around to be fed if they can get it themselves. ---
**Author:** ![TX\_SpookyPants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a8b319/32.png) [@TX\_SpookyPants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TX_SpookyPants)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/31 "2005-10-27T09:34:47Z")
How about Akitas? I was raised with these dogs (well, one of them at a time), so I read a lot about them. Years ago, however. I remember (or pretend to remember) things like: One of two breeds of dogs with closing, insted of nipping, jaws (urban legend or true? I’ve only seen one souce that calls it an urban legend). At least, enough torgue to break a human arm in one bite. [According to this source.](http://www.petpublishing.com/dogken/breeds/akita.shtml) Used to hunt bears, or at least corner them until hunters could get there to kill them. I know it’s an actual Fighting Dog. Um. One of the dogs closest in relation to wolves. I’ve seen my mom’s Akita take down a Doberman who wandered into her yard with barely a scratch (most of the damage she took was actually from the concrete driveway on her paws, given how fiercely she was attacking the Dobie), and she’s actually a runt of an Akita. Something like 70-80lbs instead of the standard 120 for a female. Her father, Bear, I remember easily staring my 6’3" step-dad in the eye (on his back paws, of course), and having a chest probably 2’-2.5’ wide. HUGE dog. So, someone with more expertise on the matter? What says you? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/32 "2005-10-27T10:00:14Z")
Being fond of Kipling, I remembered the Mowgli story “Red Dog” and Googled a little. Apparently, even leopards and tigers won’t mess with [dholes](http://www.thewildones.org/Animals/dhole.html). Someone above mentioned that wolves are pack animals and this would be the undoing of the dog. This is sort of the other side of that story. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/33 "2005-10-27T12:18:43Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Googling suggests that a chow is typically 45 to 70 pounds - perhaps half the weight of a wolf. Have you guys seen how [big](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4635005) these suckers are? ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/34 "2005-10-27T13:05:59Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > “Pit Bull” is **not** a breed of dog, any more than “Seeing Eye Dog” is. [http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html](http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html) ---
**Author:** ![Madd\_Maxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Madd\_Maxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madd_Maxx)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/35 "2005-10-27T16:47:09Z")
Great Danes are very large and have huge mouths. Not known for fighting, but pure size and strength can be a factor against a lone wolf. ---
**Author:** ![Lisa\_Ann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bc79bd/32.png) [@Lisa\_Ann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lisa_Ann)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/36 "2005-10-27T18:20:26Z")
**Googling suggests that a chow is typically 45 to 70 pounds - perhaps half the weight of a wolf. During their entire life, few chows will kill anything even a fraction the size of a wolf. A truly pugnatious chow is disproportionately likely not to survive & breed, given the requirement of fitting into human society. I see no edge in tools or temperament there.** Mine is 65 pounds. (He’s 13!) The bobcat was about 35 pounds. Bearsy Angel did not have a single scratch on him. He fits very well into ‘human society’ as he absolutely loves people. He also takes direction from more than one person. That said, if he’s got ahold of an animal it’s very hard to get him to let go! He will drop it at that command, but if the creature moves, he grabs it. I don’t count on proving Chow vs Wolf as we have coyotes on our property and not wolves. It is not a wish of mine that he tangle with a coyote. But I still think he has a great shot at it. Not only does the loose skin on his neck help, but all of that fur there, too. Animals just can’t get ahold of him. He’s also very muscled and extremely determined. And nothing scares him except smoke detector alarms! ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/37 "2005-10-27T19:24:14Z")
> [@Lisa Ann](#): > > It is not a wish of mine that he tangle with a coyote. But I still think he has a great shot at it. He might do okay against a single coyote - but that lone animal is likely smart enough to decline battle and go fetch his mates. Against several coyotes highly skilled in pack predation (or else they wouldn’t be alive), how is your chow likely to do? > [@](#): > > nothing scares him except smoke detector alarms! I recommend installing a coyote detector alarm. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/38 "2005-10-27T20:49:50Z")
With a name like mine I just have to join this discussion. As already mentioned, German Shepherds are intelligent and strong and would probably put up a darned good fight. One breed not yet mentioned is the Siberian Huskie. These dogs are incredibly tough. Of all dogbreeds I’d say they are about the closest to wolves in behavior and appearance. Although considered a medium sized dog, huskies are very powerful. Having owned one huskie and a few German Shepherds, even in “play” those 2 breeds have given this wolf quite a workout !!! ---
**Author:** ![LiveOnAPlane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@LiveOnAPlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LiveOnAPlane)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/39 "2005-10-27T21:45:22Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > …One breed not yet mentioned is the Siberian Huskie. These dogs are incredibly tough. Of all dogbreeds I’d say they are about the closest to wolves in behavior and appearance. Although considered a medium sized dog, huskies are very powerful. > > Having owned one huskie and a few German Shepherds, even in “play” those 2 breeds have given this wolf quite a workout !!! Is that the breed that has brown eyes? I thought Huskies had blue eyes, but not my neighbor’s dog; his are brown. (And, no my neighbor doesn’t know…he adopted him, he’s not AKC but does look like a pure-bred) If so, I would second your evaluation. I’ve gotten pretty friendly with some pretty large dogs in my time, but the thing about my neighbor’s (Huskie?) that really amazes me is not merely size and strength, it’s his speed. He is quicker than any dog I’ve even played around with. And while he has never demonstrated his jaw strength upon my person, I can say that he doesn’t knaw bones from T-Bone steaks, this rascal **eats**'em like pretzels. Oh, yeah, and when he wants to be, he is silent as the night. That guy can walk right up on you and you’ll never know it until you turn around and… Gahhh! Amazing breed. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028/40 "2005-10-27T22:09:04Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > He might do okay against a single coyote - but that lone animal is likely smart enough to decline battle and go fetch his mates. Against several coyotes highly skilled in pack predation (or else they wouldn’t be alive), how is your chow likely to do? Our coyotes tend to be solitary although I’ve seen cooperative hunting on occasion. However I don’t think coyotes are pack members in the manner that wolves are. We have lots of snow geese who winter here. One day on our golf course I say two coyotes slowly sneaking up on a flock of geese who were about 30 yards from the shore of a lake. When the hunters got within about 20 yards the geese took off away from the coyotes and toward the lake. From down behind the bank of the lake a single coyote made a leap as the geese went over him just missing one. I wish he had gotten it because I wanted to see whether all shared in the catch or whether he would have grabbed and taken off at high speed. I suspect the latter, but then he probably wouldn’t have been able to outrun his “pals” since he would have been burdened with the catch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-dogs-versus-wolves/328028.md?page=3)