# Domestic Problems and Alternate Lifestyles **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 8, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446 "2010-04-08T19:26:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/41 "2010-04-09T02:05:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m trying to discourage her from seeking out help from people who don’t have any ability to help her. They can help her, by referring her to knowledgeable people sensitive to her issues. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/42 "2010-04-09T02:09:30Z")
Thats not necessarily the case. They may suggest to ring that service and ask specifically for Judy, or say go to this shelter, but for the love of god not that one, or a number of other possibilities. They may offer a particular counsellor because the person doesnt want to talk to a shelter yet or isnt even ready to identify as experiencing DV vs just an unhealthy relationship or whatever. Again you dont know what the real situation is here, you only have someone elses external evaluation of the situation. Focussing on shelters or legal services as the only solution is not a useful approach… Edit: Too slow, obviously this is a reply to DG. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/43 "2010-04-09T02:09:54Z")
I think this has gone beyond the realm of GQ. Since the OP is seeking advice, IMHO is probably a better place for it. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/44 "2010-04-09T02:09:56Z")
Being knowledgable and sensitive is of no help unless they are DV professionals. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/45 "2010-04-09T02:11:02Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > Thats not necessarily the case. They may suggest to ring that service and ask specifically for Judy, or say go to this shelter, but for the love of god not that one, or a number of other possibilities. They may offer a particular counsellor because the person doesnt want to talk to a shelter yet or isnt even ready to identify as experiencing DV vs just an unhealthy relationship or whatever. > > Again you dont know what the real situation is here, you only have someone elses external evaluation of the situation. Focussing on shelters or legal services as the only solution is not a useful approach.. > > Otara Not the only solution, just the thing that has to be done first. ---
**Author:** ![Apex\_Rogers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Apex\_Rogers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apex_Rogers)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/46 "2010-04-09T02:21:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They’ll just tell her to call the same battered women’s shelters as everybody else. And you know this how? You just keep repeating the same tired points that others successfully argued against. You do realize this “bondage club” is actually a referral service that directs people to knowledgeable professionals and not some fly-by-night sex orgy group, right? Also, do you not see how some aspects of a BDSM relationship may seem abusive to someone who knows nothing about the lifestyle? Knowing where to draw the line between acceptable behavior and abuse is probably a not-so trivial task for someone whose only introduction to the concept is the person in front of them asking for help. Comparing a BDSM enthusiast to someone with a foot fetish and equating the two as equally irrelevant points to the topic at hand just shows how far off the mark you are. Either you are too stubborn to concede the point, or you do not understand what a BDSM relationship is. > [@](#): > > Being knowledgable and sensitive is of no help unless they are DV professionals. You apparently do not understand what the service does, otherwise you would know that the service will put the person in touch with DV professionals, who also have knowledge of BDSM. Why do you insist that this is a bad thing? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/47 "2010-04-09T02:23:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Being knowledgable and sensitive is of no help unless they are DV professionals. Some people on the KAP list fit that criteria. I went to law school with some of them. If I were in private practice, I’d probably be one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/48 "2010-04-09T03:09:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > By the way, restraining orders are really hard to beat. The defendant basically has to prove that he isn’t a threat to the victim. They rarely succeed in squashing them. This guy will not succeed either. Any attempt he makes to use his sex kinks as a defense will only work against him. There is nothing any lawyer representing her will need to understand other than how the guy abused her or threatened her. I missed this edit. You’re wrong again, at least in my state. Permanent protective orders are not “really hard to beat”, and the defendant doesn’t have to prove jack shit. He’s the non-moving party. The plaintiff, as the moving party, bears the burden of proof, and she must prove she is entitled to the order under the terms of the statute. The Defendant can challenge any evidence she produces, and produce evidence of his own if he so chooses. For that matter, he can counterclaim against her for any grounds he may have. You have absolutely no basis to form an opinion on whether “this guy” will succeed in quashing an order. The lawyer representing her needs to understand a variety of things–some peculiar to BDSM, some common among victims, some that overlap both areas. Many victims have serious issues with dependency, depression, little or no self esteem, limited financial resources, shame, fear, guilt, etc. Add in BDSM lifestyle issues as well, and things get really complicated. Prepping a victim for cross examination isn’t easy or pleasant. Sometimes, just getting her to testify is a challenge. Even the evidence in a hypothetical hearing could be…unusual. A slave contract, graphic pictures & videos, witnesses that may be less than willing to show up and/or testify truthfully, medical records–was that bruise from a consensual spanking or from intentional abuse? Is the guy an unskillful BDSM practitioner, or an asshole? Is he likely to cause future harm? Is she a credible witness? ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/49 "2010-04-09T05:44:10Z")
> [@Apex\_Rogers](#): > > And you know this how? You just keep repeating the same tired points that others successfully argued against. Because he’s **Dio** , and that’s what he does. On anything related to sex, \*\*Dio \*\*knows all and his opinion is the only correct one. He’s played out this exact same tired script multitudes of times already. Just ignore him. ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/50 "2010-04-09T16:07:21Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Because he’s **Dio** , and that’s what he does. On anything related to sex, \*\*Dio \*\*knows all and his opinion is the only correct one. He’s played out this exact same tired script multitudes of times already. Just ignore him. Certainly a lesson learned from this thread, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/51 "2010-04-09T17:05:38Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > \ > > The lawyer representing her needs to understand a variety of things–some peculiar to BDSM, some common among victims, some that overlap both areas. > > Many victims have serious issues with dependency, depression, little or no self esteem, limited financial resources, shame, fear, guilt, etc. Add in BDSM lifestyle issues as well, and things get really complicated. Prepping a victim for cross examination isn’t easy or pleasant. Sometimes, just getting her to testify is a challenge. > > Even the evidence in a hypothetical hearing could be…unusual. A slave contract, graphic pictures & videos, witnesses that may be less than willing to show up and/or testify truthfully, medical records–was that bruise from a consensual spanking or from intentional abuse? Is the guy an unskillful BDSM practitioner, or an asshole? Is he likely to cause future harm? Is she a credible witness? Good post. I agree that the BDSM lifestyle is absolutely germane for her extrication from this situation. The normal boundaries you would expect between a man and a woman could be quite blurred and not easily sorted out from normal kink and abnormal abuse. It’s not exactly the same, but when Jim and I were having trouble a few years ago over internet relationships that were crossing boundaries, we saw a counsellor who could barely start up a computer. Her advice on internet relationships was very close to useless since she knew absolutely nothing about online communities and the relationships people can form there. I can see a similar situation with the OP’s friend talking to people who know nothing about a BDSM lifestyle - the advice could range from useless to actively harmful. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/52 "2010-04-09T18:10:06Z")
Particularly given your geographical distance: [ul] [li] has she actually explicitly expressed to you that she’s unhappy in the relationship and wants to leave (and/or is afraid to leave)? and/or[/li][li] has she actually explicitly expressed to you that some of the controls he’s placed on her are, in fact, non-consensual?[/ul][/li] I say this because while I don’t particularly “get” the 24/7 Master/slave kink/lifestyle (and honestly I think it is, at least in some regards, unhealthy), some people are indeed into it, and if she is, that’s her choice whether you (or I) think it’s good for her or not. If this is the case you need to butt out; at most just be prepared to be there for her should she ever change her mind (but don’t necessarily expect that she will). If this is a consensual relationship, and you don’t butt out, I doubt you’ll convince her to leave just on the power of your say-so in any case, and you’ll probably alienate her to the point where she no longer communicates with you at all. On the other hand, if there’s any aspect of her relationship that is non-consensual, and you know this for a fact, then yeah, she’ll need resources and whatever help you can offer. I’ll also note that not every professional is equipped to handle this sort of thing, some claims in this thread to the contrary. While I’ve never had a therapist who was _judgmental_ about the BDSM thing, I have had some who were so utterly clueless about it that I spent most of my time in sessions explaining to her what I meant, rather than being able to just get the counseling I needed. So instead of being the patient of a therapist, I was her educator – and that was _not at all_ what I needed at that time. My therapist now is a KAP; I don’t need to extensively explain every throw-away reference to my sexuality; and my sessions with her are several orders of magnitude more useful than with the other therapists. This is for issues that have _no direct_ relation to kink, however I am a three-dimensional human being, and my sexuality is a part of that and does come up from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/53 "2010-04-09T18:36:07Z")
I’d recommend some books on BDSM and that your friend read a few relevant [Savage Love columns](http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=3801756) (and listen to some podcasts – callers who think BDSM means they get to choke their partner when they feel like it or sort of like being told what to do and assume that means everything, all the time aren’t that rare). But how the hell is she going to do any of that if she’s got to sneak around to even communicate with outsiders? Yes, some BDSM activities and relationships seem weird and even abusive to outsiders – but both (or all) partners involved in them tend to not feel that way _themselves_. Your friend does, apparently. And other people in the BDSM community – if she is allowed to be part of the community at all – would likely be the first to cuss out her abuser. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/54 "2010-04-09T22:51:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If it’s domestic violence then it’s domestic violence. Of what relevance is the S&M nonsense to the professionals who deal with domestic violence? Mainly because many shelters are church based and they have a thing against alternate lifestyles sometimes … “and BDSM means you like to get hit, so why are you complaining …” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/55 "2010-04-10T01:22:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Being knowledgable and sensitive is of no help unless they are DV professionals. I’m not sure why you think domestic violence professionals would do her any good: you’ve got at least two domestic violence professionals in this thread telling you you’re wrong, and you haven’t stopped digging your hole yet. Clearly, you don’t have much respect for the opinions of professionals in the field, so I don’t really get why you think it’s so important that she talk to more people like them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/56 "2010-04-10T02:21:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not sure why you think domestic violence professionals would do her any good: you’ve got at least two domestic violence professionals in this thread telling you you’re wrong No, they haven’t said that at all. You should try to track the thread a little better. It would be absolutely idiotic to avoid DV professionals. The disagreement is about how to _go about contacting_ appropriate professionals, not about whether they should or should not be contacted at all. Everybody agrees that they should be contacted. You aren’t comprehending the discussion. One thing that’s for sure is that _non_-DV professionals would be of no use at all except, perhaps, in directing her in who to contact. Really all we’re arguing about is who to call _first_. I say none of the other stuff matters until she’s safe. They say the bondage fraternity or referral service, or whatever it is will give them good contacts. I maintain that in an emergency DV situation they will only refer them to the same DV support numbers as for everyone else. There aren’t any special shelters just for bondage freaks or piss drinkers or whatever. The shelters are the shelters. The cops are the cops. That’s who you call first, and if you call the kink linkers, they’re going to tell you to call the shelters and the cops. After she’s out of danger, then she can worry about the talk therapy and the legal proceedings, but these people aren’t going to be able to get her out of danger. It’s not like they have some kind of private “kink aware” police force or network of shelters and social workers or anything. In an emergency, you call emergency professionals. If you’re house is on fire, you don’t dicker around trying to find some specialized firefighting unit that understands piss drinking. You just call the fire department. Sexual kinks are irrelevant in an emergency. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/57 "2010-04-10T04:05:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They say the bondage fraternity or referral service, or whatever it is will give them good contacts. I maintain that in an emergency DV situation they will only refer them to the same DV support numbers as for everyone else. You really need to learn to admit when you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/58 "2010-04-10T04:47:26Z")
Are you saying that there ARE private, “kink aware” police forces and shelters just for leather freaks? if not, then you’ll have to explain what I’m wrong about. What alternative emergency services and support exist specifically for kinky sex fans? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/59 "2010-04-10T13:13:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Are you saying that there ARE private, “kink aware” police forces and shelters just for leather freaks? if not, then you’ll have to explain what I’m wrong about. What alternative emergency services and support exist specifically for kinky sex fans? As several people with real world experience in this area have posted on this thread, there are particular people and agencies that would be more appropriate to handle the situation. It’s not rocket science; all domestic violence professionals are not equal. This isn’t a value judgment, just reality. Why do you find this difficult to accept? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446/60 "2010-04-10T16:28:48Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > As several people with real world experience in this area have posted on this thread, there are particular people and agencies that would be more appropriate to handle the situation. Are they equipped to handle emergency services, yes or no? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-problems-and-alternate-lifestyles/535446.md?page=4)