# Domestic terrorists take aim at health care reform **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 24, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568 "2010-03-24T02:11:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/121 "2010-03-26T17:49:26Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > And don’t forget the war in Iraq that Obama started. That cost a lot of lives and money. > > (I swear, if the Republicans wanted to, they could start this meme easily, and by the end of 2011, 39% of the American population would believe it.) Should that take precedence over the campaign to have the virgin birth of St Ronald Reagan acknowledged ? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/122 "2010-03-26T17:51:16Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > And for the record: I think I’ve changed my mind on this topic. What did it for me is the three (!) callers on this morning’s local DC drive-time radio show who suggested that ‘it’s time to take up rifles’ and similar stuff. [http://www.thepoliticalcarnival.net/2010/03/video-tennesee-man-rams-car-carrying.html](http://www.thepoliticalcarnival.net/2010/03/video-tennesee-man-rams-car-carrying.html) Rifles, SUVs… same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/123 "2010-03-26T18:09:40Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > [Ask and ye shall receive](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4lJ9vsZjMU). Thanks!, youtube is blocked at work, I’ll see from home as soon as possible 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/124 "2010-03-26T18:09:57Z")
One of our local Congressmen, Anthony Weiner, received an envelope containing a threatening letter and some white powder. He also received a letter at his office with threats, and a swastika. Lovely stuff. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/125 "2010-03-26T18:15:58Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > …I’m a boomer. I’m also a card carrying retired hippy… Please exercise more care in the application of your broad brush. Boy, kids these days, huh? And that so-called “music”! Really, just a bunch of noise, you ask me! Hey! Get off my LAN! ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/126 "2010-03-26T18:21:04Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > My “rant” was this… > During the last administration, how many things were “rammed through”, and the Right supported all of it? The Dems either did not, or could not oppose much of it. But that was OK. Now the shoe is on the other foot, and it’s not OK? > > Take your head out of your ass. No offense young man, but wtf are you talking about? a) two wrongs never make a right. I guess your mom never taught you that? b) the Dems controlled Congress since 2006; surely you don’t refer to any programs past then c) which programs pre-2006 were rammed in this manner (deem and pass plus NO dem votes plus NO dem amendments/compromises)? From a moderate’s perspective, I saw W trying to work with the Dems to pass Med Part D (or take the issue away from them). What did it get him, besides sniping from his own party and the Hannity’s of the world? I saw plenty of Dem votes for OEF and OIF, including HRC and Kerry, no unified opposition there. So, since you’re making the accusation, child, tell me which things were rammed through in the same manner as healthcare? Hopefully they are things that also affected 1/6 of the economy, or a similar scale… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/127 "2010-03-26T18:27:51Z")
Say, long as you’ve got so much time on your hands, can you get back to telling us about that story about Dems burning a black church to blame the Republicans? What happened, you look it up and find out it was a steaming load? And now you want to pretend you never said it? Good luck with that, scooter. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/128 "2010-03-26T18:32:30Z")
Please to define “rammed through,” especially after more than a year of public debate and committee meetings regarding the bill itself. Please to define “lack of bipartisanship,” especially since the bill contains about 200 Republican-sponsored amendments. Thanks in advance for your time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/129 "2010-03-26T18:42:20Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > Thanks!, youtube is blocked at work, I’ll see from home as soon as possible 🙂 Tho after I viewed it, I noticed the mashup maker didn’t allude to the various attempts to paint the figurative moustache on Obama, but only to the teabaggers=fascists meme. Still had me ROTF anyway. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/130 "2010-03-26T18:51:28Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > No offense young man, but wtf are you talking about? > > a) two wrongs never make a right. I guess your mom never taught you that? > b) the Dems controlled Congress since 2006; surely you don’t refer to any programs past then > c) which programs pre-2006 were rammed in this manner (deem and pass plus NO dem votes plus NO dem amendments/compromises)? > > From a moderate’s perspective, I saw W trying to work with the Dems to pass Med Part D (or take the issue away from them). What did it get him, besides sniping from his own party and the Hannity’s of the world? I saw plenty of Dem votes for OEF and OIF, including HRC and Kerry, no unified opposition there. > > So, since you’re making the accusation, child, tell me which things were rammed through in the same manner as healthcare? Hopefully they are things that also affected 1/6 of the economy, or a similar scale… First off, this was not “rammed through” against the wishes of the people. > [@](#): > > [http://www.gallup.com/poll/126929/Slim-Margin-Americans-Support-Healthcare-Bill-Passage.aspx](http://www.gallup.com/poll/126929/Slim-Margin-Americans-Support-Healthcare-Bill-Passage.aspx) > > PRINCETON, NJ – Nearly half of Americans give a thumbs-up to Congress’ passage of a healthcare reform bill last weekend, with 49% calling it “a good thing.” Republicans and Democrats have polar opposite reactions, with independents evenly split. … > Americans’ emotional responses to the bill’s passage are more positive than negative – with 50% enthusiastic or pleased versus 42% angry or disappointed – and are similar to their general reactions. … Apparently, there is a growing fissure in the GOP about this … Not all “the faithful” are “faithful enough” or hardline enough apparently. As for “deem and pass”, according to this site/cite, deem and pass apparently is ONLY bad when the OTHER guys do it… > [@](#): > > [http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/03/16/2229330.aspx](http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/03/16/2229330.aspx) > From NBC’s Domenico Montanaro and Ken Strickland > There have been lots of stories today on the latest legislative tactic Democratic leaders are considering using to try and pass the Senate health-care bill through the House. … A little history > “Deem and Pass” has been used often and by both parties. Democrats point out that Republicans used it quite a bit in the 1990s, in fact – though not for something quite as large as this. > In this Congress, Democrats used “Deem and Pass” for raising the debt ceiling, which was tucked into the PayGo bill. Further, according to Fox, > [@](#): > > [http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/20/house-opts-deeming-health-care-passed/](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/20/house-opts-deeming-health-care-passed/) > House Opts Against ‘Deeming’ Health Care Bill Passed > House Democrats on Saturday decided against using a controversial tactic to pass the Senate’s version of the health care bill, a senior House source confirmed to Fox News. … The decision capped an ongoing discussion on whether to use a so-called “deem and pass” strategy that would allow House members to approve the Senate version of health care bill without an actual vote before taking up a second “fix-it” resolution, known as reconciliation. > The stage is now set for three big votes on Sunday: the first to bring the “fix-it” bill to the House floor. The second on the bill. Then the final vote would be on the Senate bill itself. … Rep. David Dreier, R-Calif., cheered the decision by Democrats to abandon "deem and pass,"calling it a sign that Democrats are buckling under pressure. > “In the words of Ronald Reagan, 'they may not have seen the light, but they certainly felt the heat,” he said in a written statement. … At a meeting of the House Rules Committee, one of the chief sponsors of the health care measure, Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., said he was “against the idea of deeming” and passing the bill. > The House must approve the Senate’s version of the heath care bill and President Obama must sign that legislation into law before the “fix-it” bill, known as reconciliation, can come into play. So, there is no “concerted conspiracy among the Dems. And, again, there have been Deem And Pass instances before > [@](#): > > [Expert: Pelosi 'deem and pass' strategy for health care is not unusual](http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2010/03/expert-pelosi-deem-and-pass-strategy-for-health-care-is-not-unusual/1) > However, this kind of end run by the House is not that unusual, according to congressional scholar Thomas Mann of the Brookings Institution. Mann says Congress has used self-executing rules to pass such legislation as the smoking ban on domestic airline flights, an employment verification system meant to screen out illegal immigrants and a ban on using statistical sampling for the 2000 Census. > “It’s a way to manage difficult, partisan problems,” Mann says. > As with reconciliation, self-executing rules have been used by both Democratic and Republican congressional majorities, Mann says. He says Congress used it 36 times in 2005 and 2006, when the GOP was in charge, and 49 times in 2007 and 2008, after the Democrats had taken control. Under Article I, section 5 of the Constitution, the House can determine its own rules for passing legislation. There are plenty of precedents for passing legislation by reference through a special rule. And, Kolga has a good question for you: > [@Kolga](#): > > Please to define “rammed through,” especially after more than a year of public debate and committee meetings regarding the bill itself. > > Please to define “lack of bipartisanship,” especially since the bill contains about 200 Republican-sponsored amendments. > > Thanks in advance for your time. Finally, I am not a child by any stretch of the imagination. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/131 "2010-03-26T18:54:57Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Stop that right now. > > I’m a boomer. I’m also a card carrying retired hippy, and life long liberal. I’ve done the marches, been doused with tear gas, washed down the street by fire hose, billy clubbed bloody, and arrested. In service of liberal ends like equality and social justice. Have you? > > I frankly can’t believe that \*\*SA \*\*is only two years older than I am. His halcyon vision of the 50s and 60s contrasts strongly with my own. The current right wing insanity (meant in the quite literal sense of the word) is anathema to me. > > Grey hair (what’s left of it) does NOT a Republican make. Please exercise more care in the application of your broad brush. I apologize. I wasn’t saying that all older people are Tea Partiers. I was saying that all Tea Partiers (or at least, most of them) are older people. I know a lot of Boomers who are quite liberal and I try to go out of my way to get to know them, because it makes me feel better to know that not everyone over 60 has gone off the deep end. I’m a Gen Xer and we’re very cynical, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/132 "2010-03-26T19:04:16Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > which programs pre-2006 were rammed in this manner (deem and pass plus NO dem votes plus NO dem amendments/compromises)? Deem and pass was discussed, but not used. (Reconciliation was used.) And if there was no compromise, what happened to the public option? And what was all that bowing and scraping just to get a single vote from Olympia Snowe last year? I mean, you’re correct Obama would have gotten more Republican votes if he’d proclaimed “we’re going to reform health care by cutting taxes!” but realistically… You’re generally correct that Bush worked with the Democrats when they controlled Congress in the early part of his term, including the post-September 11 period when nobody would stand up to him for any reason. After the GOP took power in the 2002 midterms, though, he had no need for the Democrats. After they regained Congress in 2006, practically nothing got done. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/133 "2010-03-26T19:10:39Z")
(The second bill was the one passed by reconciliation. That would have happened even if it had been voted on together with the main bill, via deem and pass, instead of separately). ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/134 "2010-03-26T19:11:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Boy, kids these days, huh? And that so-called “music”! Really, just a bunch of noise, you ask me! Hey! Get off my LAN! 😃[Link to hysterical thread involving lanmowers](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=554232&highlight=lanmower) > [@C3](#): > > I apologize. I wasn’t saying that all older people are Tea Partiers. I was saying that all Tea Partiers (or at least, most of them) are older people. I know a lot of Boomers who are quite liberal and I try to go out of my way to get to know them, because it makes me feel better to know that not everyone over 60 has gone off the deep end. I’m a Gen Xer and we’re very cynical, you know. All is forgiven. Ya wanna know from cynical, talk to some of us boomers. Like **'luc** for instance. 😛 Why, I could tell you some stories that would curl your… tell you… some… sto… \ Hey, what are you lookin’ at? Nothin’ to see here. Go home. And let your hair grow some, too. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/135 "2010-03-26T19:41:04Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > [And just for the record, Richmond VA police have confirmed that the bullet at Cantor’s office was fired randomly.](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hPSXB0pVWgnTggpu-KnVqhophahwD9ELT6600) Heck, Fox News is reporting that not only did it appear to be randomly fired, but it [hit a window on the bottom floor, but Cantor rents the top floor](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/26/bullet-struck-cantors-office-appears-randomly-fired/). ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/136 "2010-03-26T20:10:56Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > Heck, Fox News is reporting that not only did it appear to be randomly fired, but it [hit a window on the bottom floor, but Cantor rents the top floor](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/26/bullet-struck-cantors-office-appears-randomly-fired/). So should we take that to mean the evil liberals hoping to silence Cantor have bad aim? I’m sure Glenn Beck will have a nice spin for it. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/137 "2010-03-26T20:17:37Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Boomers: please, hurry up and die. Hey! We’re not all cretinous knuckledraggers, ya know. Some of us are merely simpering idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/138 "2010-03-26T20:18:12Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > First off, this was not “rammed through” against the wishes of the people. > > Apparently, there is a growing fissure in the GOP about this … Not all “the faithful” are “faithful enough” or hardline enough apparently. > > As for “deem and pass”, according to this site/cite, deem and pass apparently is ONLY bad when the OTHER guys do it… > > Further, according to Fox, > > So, there is no “concerted conspiracy among the Dems. > And, again, there have been Deem And Pass instances before > > Under Article I, section 5 of the Constitution, the House can determine its own rules for passing legislation. There are plenty of precedents for passing legislation by reference through a special rule. > And, Kolga has a good question for you: > > Finally, I am not a child by any stretch of the imagination. The answer to your question is in your quotes. Yes deem and pass has been used by both sides. So has reconciliation. But never something this massive or with this much affect on americans, for generations to come (both the way healthcare gets delivered and the impact to our fiscal health). Lack of bipartisanship means no Republicans voted for it. At least that’s what a Republican would think. You say it wasn’t rammed through. From your perspective, I’m sure you believe that. But put yourself in the shoes of the other side; they just saw a bill this massive and this many repurcussions go through with zero bipartisan support. Almost every legislative trick in the book was used to squeak it through, which was necessary after that very conservative state Massachussets went ahead and elected a Republican who pretty much ran a single issue campaign of stopping it. The CNN poll you cite I think is mostly due to the emotional burst it got post-passage - there’s another thread on that somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/139 "2010-03-26T20:23:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Deem and pass was discussed, but not used. (Reconciliation was used.) And if there was no compromise, what happened to the public option? And what was all that bowing and scraping just to get a single vote from Olympia Snowe last year? I mean, you’re correct Obama would have gotten more Republican votes if he’d proclaimed “we’re going to reform health care by cutting taxes!” but realistically… > > You’re generally correct that Bush worked with the Democrats when they controlled Congress in the early part of his term, including the post-September 11 period when nobody would stand up to him for any reason. After the GOP took power in the 2002 midterms, though, he had no need for the Democrats. After they regained Congress in 2006, practically nothing got done. I would agree with you if Snowe had voted for the bill. But she didn’t nor did any of her moderate GOP buddies. But you didn’t address the Medicare Part D situation I brought up, which I think is instructive here. I would have liked to see Obama do something like that - fix the important stuff, like eliminating lifetime caps, pre-existing conditions, and create interstate exchanges. But include some good GOP ideas like tort reform to eliminate the current crapshoot system we have, medical savings accounts, etc. That’s the way you do life-changing legislation. By doing it this way, all he’s done is ensure the pendulum willl swing wildly over the next few election cycles, and Americans will be more bitterly divided than ever. It’s good if you’re an extremist I guess (and there are more than a few of them on the SDMB, on both sides). But bad if you want good government. It’s stuff like this that create situations that enable the OP. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/140 "2010-03-26T20:25:14Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > Thanks!, youtube is blocked at work, I’ll see from home as soon as possible 🙂 It’s a good one, and “Stalin” gets slotted in perfectly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568.md?page=8)