# Domestic terrorists take aim at health care reform **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 24, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568 "2010-03-24T02:11:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/141 "2010-03-26T20:32:40Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I would agree with you if Snowe had voted for the bill. But she didn’t nor did any of her moderate GOP buddies. That’s beside the point. Claiming that the bill was rammed through because no Republicans voted for it is putting the cart before the horse; the bill was written to appease Republicans, who approved it and then decided not to vote for it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/142 "2010-03-26T20:35:12Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Yes deem and pass has been used by both sides. So has reconciliation. But never something this massive or with this much affect on americans, for generations to come (both the way healthcare gets delivered and the impact to our fiscal health). [You’re a fool.](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/did_republicans_use_reconcilia.html) > [@](#): > > The 1995 Balanced Budget Act was passed in reconciliation. The final vote was 52 to 47. The 2001 Bush Tax Cut was passed in reconciliation. The final vote was 58 to 33. The 2003 Bush Tax Cut was passed in reconciliation. The final vote was 50 to 50, with Dick Cheney casting the tie-breaking vote. The 2005 Deficit Reduction Act was also passed in reconciliation with a 50 to 50 vote and a Cheney intervention. The 2006 Tax Relief Extensions Act was passed in reconciliation. The final vote was 54 to 44. > [@](#): > > Lack of bipartisanship means no Republicans voted for it. At least that’s what a Republican would think. And they’re childish to think so. > [@](#): > > But put yourself in the shoes of the other side; they just saw a bill this massive and this many repurcussions go through with zero bipartisan support. The lack of the rejected minority’s input was their own fault entirely. It isn’t as if the majority didn’t try, you know. Or, maybe, being a fool, you don’t know. > [@](#): > > The CNN poll you cite I think is mostly due to the emotional burst it got post-passage - there’s another thread on that somewhere. Was there no emotional burst before, fool? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/143 "2010-03-26T20:37:36Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > …Ya wanna know from cynical, talk to some of us boomers. Like **'luc** for instance… Not me, they don’t recognize me, because I’m in disguise. Stealth boomer. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/144 "2010-03-26T20:42:37Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Lack of bipartisanship means no Republicans voted for it. At least that’s what a Republican would think. There were about 200 Republican-sponsored amendments in the final bill. How many are required before a Republican will vote for the bill? 300? 500? The totality of the bill? ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/145 "2010-03-26T21:21:32Z")
[QUOTE=Kolga] The totality of the bill? [/QUOTE] Maybe, as long as it didn’t have anything that Democrats were okay with. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/146 "2010-03-26T21:47:47Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > The answer to your question is in your quotes. > > Yes deem and pass has been used by both sides. So has reconciliation. But never something this massive or with this much affect on americans, for generations to come (both the way healthcare gets delivered and the impact to our fiscal health). > > Lack of bipartisanship means no Republicans voted for it. At least that’s what a Republican would think. > > You say it wasn’t rammed through. From your perspective, I’m sure you believe that. But put yourself in the shoes of the other side; they just saw a bill this massive and this many repurcussions go through with zero bipartisan support. Almost every legislative trick in the book was used to squeak it through, which was necessary after that very conservative state Massachussets went ahead and elected a Republican who pretty much ran a single issue campaign of stopping it. > > The CNN poll you cite I think is mostly due to the emotional burst it got post-passage - there’s another thread on that somewhere. You’re an idiot. Don’t waste my time. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/147 "2010-03-26T21:55:06Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Lack of bipartisanship means no Republicans voted for it. At least that’s what a Republican would think. > > You say it wasn’t rammed through. From your perspective, I’m sure you believe that. But put yourself in the shoes of the other side; they just saw a bill this massive and this many repurcussions go through with zero bipartisan support. And whose fault is that? What kind of screwy argument holds the Democrats responsible for the deliberate obstructionism by the Republicans? It sounds like, “It’s your fault we refused to vote for it!”. Makes no sense at all. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/148 "2010-03-26T21:59:47Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And whose fault is that? What kind of screwy argument holds the Democrats responsible for the deliberate obstructionism by the Republicans? It sounds like, “It’s your fault we refused to vote for it!”. Makes no sense at all. Same sort of argument that blames the wife for being beaten by her husband. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/149 "2010-03-26T22:00:52Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > …Makes no sense at all. Indeed. We’ve come full circle, and defined today’s Republican Party. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/150 "2010-03-26T22:06:38Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Same sort of argument that blames the wife for being beaten by her husband. THE ROAST BEEF DIDN’T BURN ITSELF, GOD DAMN IT! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/151 "2010-03-26T22:08:42Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I would agree with you if Snowe had voted for the bill… Say, long as you’ve got so much time on your hands, can you get back to telling us about that story about Dems burning a black church to blame the Republicans? What happened, you look it up and find out it was a steaming load? And now you want to pretend you never said it? Good luck with that, scooter. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/152 "2010-03-26T22:47:06Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > You’re right; chalk that up to only having a few seconds before having to go out and watch the kid while wife ran out :o > > The title of the first link is “Shots fired at Rep Eric Cantor’s Richmond Campaign Office”. I didn’t watch the video, no time. > > Are you saying that nobody was shooting at the campaign office? And I know that these examples were banned as per the OP, but let’s face it, the left does plenty of mayhem… whether it’s ELF burning down Hummer dealerships or freeing animals captured for testing, or Greenpeace trying to ram ships, or burning down black churches so as to blame Republicans in advance of an election, rioting at an IMF fund meeting or Davos meeting, etc… > > The point is, both sides do it. About that church burning… You want to answer peoples questions about that church burning? All terrorist acts are wrong. All vandalism and death threats are wrong. Running “suspected Obama supporters” off the road is wrong. Take a page from Bricker’s book, he is Republican, he is (in large part) right wing, but he felt no shame in denouncing these acts, and did not resort to an attempt at equivalency. Why can’t you do the same? “We on the left” have no problem denouncing ELF, Green Peace, PETA or tree spikers, do we? We just do it. We call them crazies, assholes, all sorts of things. An asshole is an asshole. Don’t justify these clowns. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/153 "2010-03-26T22:47:47Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I would agree with you if Snowe had voted for the bill. That’d doesn’t make any sense. You know they discussed a public option and then removed it to try to get more conservative votes. You know that Snowe in particular was targeted and that they tried to enlist her support. She did end up supporting the bill in committee before voting against it. So what is your position here exactly? “They tried to get her support, but because she didn’t vote for the bill, they didn’t try to get it?” > [@](#): > > But you didn’t address the Medicare Part D situation I brought up, which I think is instructive here. I would have liked to see Obama do something like that - fix the important stuff, like eliminating lifetime caps, pre-existing conditions, and create interstate exchanges. But include some good GOP ideas like tort reform to eliminate the current crapshoot system we have, medical savings accounts, etc. The Republicans could have gotten some of that into the final bill if they had participated in any kind of negotiation. He offered to include tort reform ideas, for example. They threw their lot with the Tea Partiers instead, so they got nothing. Obama was elected in part because he expressed a lot of willingness to work with both parties. Congressional Republicans decided the best way to win more seats was to deny him the ability to claim bipartisan success and support. So they wouldn’t give him one single vote on anything no matter what he offered no matter what. And in the end they failed: the health care bill was compromised and it took forever, but it passed. They managed to make it unpopular, but that’s the choice they made. They decided being partners on a popular bipartisan bill would not benefit them as much as being the futile, infantile opposition to this bill. After all, Obama would have gotten most of the credit on the bill if they’d supported it. The end result was they didn’t get much of what they wanted even though the plan was well short of what the left wanted. It didn’t have to go like this, but they decided “Obama’s death panels are going to kill my baby” was the optimal electoral strategy. Your beef is with them. > [@](#): > > It’s stuff like this that create situations that enable the OP. Fuck, you really are that stupid. Serves me right. But for the record, no, it’s not Obama’s fault people are threatening to shoot people who supported his bill. The blame primarily goes to the people who are making the death threats, of course, but some of the blame goes to the politicians who’ve spent a year telling the public that the health care bill is going to kill their children and elderly relatives and destroy democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/154 "2010-03-26T23:51:12Z")
Can I get an answer to any of my questions from earlier? To repeat: Is the statement that there were approximately 200 Republican-sponsored amendments to the bill true? If so, how many would it have taken to get a Republican to vote for it or before the bill would have been deemed bipartisan enough for a Republican to vote for it? If not, how many Republican-sponsored amendments did the bill contain? And I’ll also call for an cite for your statement that some black churches were burned by Democrats so that the crime could be blamed on Republicans. Thanks in advance for your time. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/155 "2010-03-27T12:18:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [You’re a fool.](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/did_republicans_use_reconcilia.html) > > And they’re childish to think so. > > The lack of the rejected minority’s input was their own fault entirely. It isn’t as if the majority didn’t try, you know. Or, maybe, being a fool, you don’t know. > > Was there no emotional burst before, fool? Hey, call me a fool a few more times, instead of, you know, making substantive arguments. Those examples you cited were budget-oriented, which was what reconciliation was built for. This is not primarily a budget bill. You should know this. Perhaps I give too much credit to the peopple on this board. You might actually reading your own cites before calling names. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/156 "2010-03-27T12:21:11Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > There were about 200 Republican-sponsored amendments in the final bill. How many are required before a Republican will vote for the bill? 300? 500? The totality of the bill? If I were Obama, I’d have worked to include as many GOP votes as I could for something that affects this many Americans. He decided that he didn’t need/want them, that he needed the short term victory more than the long term damage it would do to the Dem hopes. My thoughts are, it’s a bad way to run the country. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/157 "2010-03-27T12:26:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And whose fault is that? What kind of screwy argument holds the Democrats responsible for the deliberate obstructionism by the Republicans? It sounds like, “It’s your fault we refused to vote for it!”. Makes no sense at all. It only makes no sense if you are a partisan Democrat or hardcore lefty true-believer. If you are looking at it from the other side, you saw a bill that was developed on Harry Reid’s conference room table, was passed over the wishes of a plurality of Americans (and at most points in time, a majority), and used a lot of shady parliamentary tricks that had never been used for something this far reaching before. I have no doubt that it got to the point where the GOP felt there was more to gain by making the opposition bipartisan w/no bipartisan support, so they went lockstep against it thinking it would help them the most in November. But it didn’t have to be that way early on; Obama and Reid and Pelosi could have put in some of the major GOP issues in here wrt tort reform and others… they just chose not to. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/158 "2010-03-27T12:39:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’d doesn’t make any sense. You know they discussed a public option and then removed it to try to get more conservative votes. You know that Snowe in particular was targeted and that they tried to enlist her support. She did end up supporting the bill in committee before voting against it. So what is your position here exactly? “They tried to get her support, but because she didn’t vote for the bill, they didn’t try to get it?” > The Republicans could have gotten some of that into the final bill if they had participated in any kind of negotiation. He offered to include tort reform ideas, for example. They threw their lot with the Tea Partiers instead, so they got nothing. Obama was elected in part because he expressed a lot of willingness to work with both parties. Congressional Republicans decided the best way to win more seats was to deny him the ability to claim bipartisan success and support. So they wouldn’t give him one single vote on anything no matter what he offered no matter what. And in the end they failed: the health care bill was compromised and it took forever, but it passed. They managed to make it unpopular, but that’s the choice they made. They decided being partners on a popular bipartisan bill would not benefit them as much as being the futile, infantile opposition to this bill. After all, Obama would have gotten most of the credit on the bill if they’d supported it. The end result was they didn’t get much of what they wanted even though the plan was well short of what the left wanted. It didn’t have to go like this, but they decided “Obama’s death panels are going to kill my baby” was the optimal electoral strategy. Your beef is with them. > Fuck, you really are that stupid. Serves me right. But for the record, no, it’s not Obama’s fault people are threatening to shoot people who supported his bill. The blame primarily goes to the people who are making the death threats, of course, but some of the blame goes to the politicians who’ve spent a year telling the public that the health care bill is going to kill their children and elderly relatives and destroy democracy. Not to sully this conversation wtih the facts or anything, but they removed the public option to get the votes of Lieberman, Landrieux, and [Pryor](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/08/AR2009120804388.html), who are Democrats. > [@](#): > > Obama was elected in part because he expressed a lot of willingness to work with both parties. Bullshit. He was elected primarily because there was a financial meltdown in the 6 weeks leading up to the last Presidential election and McCain was tarred with that as his party held the WH. Back to the OP: hey, [lookie here](http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/bricks-thrown-through-windows-of-county-gop-hq-in-va.php). Turns out both sides have whackjobs. Who would have [thunk it](http://www.wtvq.com/news/2432-bomb-threat-at-bunnings-hazard-office). ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/159 "2010-03-27T12:49:02Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Can I get an answer to any of my questions from earlier? > > To repeat: > > Is the statement that there were approximately 200 Republican-sponsored amendments to the bill true? If so, how many would it have taken to get a Republican to vote for it or before the bill would have been deemed bipartisan enough for a Republican to vote for it? If not, how many Republican-sponsored amendments did the bill contain? > > And I’ll also call for an cite for your statement that some black churches were burned by Democrats so that the crime could be blamed on Republicans. > > Thanks in advance for your time. Hi **Kolga** , thanks for your pleasant tone, you seem to be one of the few reasonable posters in this thread. I don’t know what to believe on this. A piece from last summer from [Slate](http://www.slate.com/id/2223023/), which leans left, reports that there were 160 GOP amendments in the bill. The GOP committee members complain that they weren’t substantive, that they were virtually all ‘technical’ amendments. The fact that it was a pure party line vote out of committee, 13 Dems for and 10 GOP against, probably backs that up. Slate’s summary on the amendments: > [@](#): > > Of the 788 amendments filed, 67 came from Democrats and 721 from Republicans. (That disparity drew jeers that Republicans were trying to slow things down. Another explanation may be that they offered so many so they could later claim—as they are now, in fact, claiming—that most of their suggestions went unheeded.) Only 197 amendments were passed in the end—36 from Democrats and 161 from Republicans. And of those 161 GOP amendments, Senate Republicans classify 29 as substantive and 132 as technical. If you want to know what ‘technical’ amendments look like, here’s the example Slate cited: > [@](#): > > For example, an amendment from Burr (which was accepted) says, "On line 23 after ‘groups’ insert ‘and reduces the cost of health care.’ " Another amendment, proposed by Coburn, “[d]efines [the] average work week as 40 hours.” Hardly the stuff of substance. And some of the GOP substantive amendments clearly didn’t make the cut… at least I don’t think this one is in the final bill: > [@](#): > > For example, one amendment offered by Oklahoma’s Tom Coburn requires members of Congress and their staff to enroll in the government-run health insurance program. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568/160 "2010-03-27T13:05:32Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > If I were Obama, I’d have worked to include as many GOP votes as I could for something that affects this many Americans. He decided that he didn’t need/want them, that he needed the short term victory more than the long term damage it would do to the Dem hopes. No, he DID get as many as were possible. It’s just that the Republicans were determined to oppose anything that Obama wanted regardless of the merits. There was nothing more he could have done; on the contrary, he has tried much too hard to be bipartisan with people who aren’t interested. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/domestic-terrorists-take-aim-at-health-care-reform/533568.md?page=9)