# Donald Trump announces presidential run **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 16, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679 "2015-06-16T16:35:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/241 "2015-07-12T19:31:01Z")
A note on [Forbes.com](http://Forbes.com), via Wikipedia: [INDENT][INDENT] [Forbes.com](http://Forbes.com) uses a “contributor model” in which a wide network of “contributors” writes and publishes articles directly on the website.[24] Contributors are paid based on traffic to their [Forbes.com](http://Forbes.com) pages; the site has received contributions from over 2,500 individuals, and some contributors have earned over US$100,000, according to the company.[24] Forbes currently allows advertisers to publish blog posts on its website alongside regular editorial content through a program called AdVoice, which accounts for more than 10 percent its digital revenue.[25] [Forbes.com](http://Forbes.com) also publishes subscription investment newsletters, and an online guide to web sites, Best of the Web. [/INDENT][/INDENT] For future reference, a link to an opinion piece at [Forbes.com](http://Forbes.com) should not be considered definitive. As seen above, they are not vetted. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/242 "2015-07-12T19:44:24Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Here’s the video. CNN shows the clip to Trump and he comments. (I stopped watching after viewing Trump’s high profile attack on Mexican immigrants). > > [http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/06/25/exp-presidential-candidate-donald-trump-immigration-intv-erin.cnn](http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/06/25/exp-presidential-candidate-donald-trump-immigration-intv-erin.cnn) > > I heard the WSJ version. Specifically I heard, “…They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. …” > > I did NOT hear, “They’re bringing crime and…” I did not hear the word “and” enunciated. You know what, I’ve changed my mind about this. Up thread, I said it was ambiguous whether he meant “they’re” or “their” (but that either represented a reprehensible attitude.) Nope. He said “they’re rapists.” No “and,” not “their.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/243 "2015-07-12T20:28:35Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > You know what, I’ve changed my mind about this. Of course you did. No bias there whatsoever, right? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/244 "2015-07-12T20:28:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It tells you a lot about Democrats that they have to distort what Trump said (“the majority of undocumented immigrants are rapists”) in order to attack him. Why? No, because he did say “they’re rapists”, or at least there’s as much reason to believe that he did as to believe that he said “their rapists”. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/245 "2015-07-12T20:31:20Z")
Admittedly I would view the quote from Trump’s prepared Presidential announcement speech if he walked it back or clarified that he didn’t mean what he said. Or that he was wrong to say what he did. But AFAIK, he hasn’t done that in a meaningful way, or in a way that’s consistent with observed evidence of US immigration. Old news: [Mexicans bash Trump pinata, call him imbecile](http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/26/us-trump-mexico-idUSKBN0P62L020150626). This is the sort of guy that some Republicans believe is best qualified to carry out US foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/246 "2015-07-12T20:33:43Z")
Terr: Have you viewed the video of Trump’s Presidential announcement? Here, I’ll provide the link again. It’s a CNN piece where they show the offending statement in the beginning. I do not hear the word “and”. Do you? > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/06/25/exp-presidential-candidate-donald-trump-immigration-intv-erin.cnn](http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/06/25/exp-presidential-candidate-donald-trump-immigration-intv-erin.cnn) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/247 "2015-07-12T20:38:30Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Terr: Have you viewed the video of Trump’s Presidential announcement? Here, I’ll provide the link again. It’s a CNN piece where they show the offending statement in the beginning. I do not hear the word “and”. Do you? “They’ve lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us [should be “to us” but I guess he misspoke]. They’re bringing drugs, they’re bringing crime, their rapists…” The flow of the sentence rules out “they’re rapists”. It’s “they’re bringing this, they’re bringing that, that”. But I don’t expect to convince you. You will hear what you want to hear. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/248 "2015-07-12T20:48:06Z")
Ok, then this transcription is accurate then. Terr concedes that the word “And” is missing and that Terr’s quotes were incorrect. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.” In terms of pronunciation, “They’re”, “Their” and “There” are usually indistinguishable. Here’s Terr’s interpretation, as I understand it. [INDENT][INDENT] When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime, their rapists. And some, I assume, are good people. [/INDENT][/INDENT] It doesn’t flow very well: a standard oratorical technique uses repetition: They’re this, they’re that. Is Terr saying a dangling clause was used in these prepared remarks? And what does that last sentence even mean in this presentation? ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/249 "2015-07-12T20:50:20Z")
You’re basing your defense on the assumption that Trump would only employ well-crafted parallel sentence structure? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/250 "2015-07-12T20:55:05Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > It doesn’t flow very well: a standard oratorical technique uses repetition: They’re this, they’re that. It’s not “they’re this, they’re that”. It’s “they’re bringing this, they’re bringing this, this.”. Flows perfectly well. It’s the structure of “they’re bringing this, they’re bringing that, they’re this” that doesn’t flow. But again, you will read it as your biases direct you. In followup interviews, one of which you linked to, Trump said (about the illegal Mexican immigrants) “Some are rapists, some are killers”. Are you going to “interpret” this as “illegal immigrants are rapists and killers” as well? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/251 "2015-07-12T21:05:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You will hear what you want to hear. As opposed to **Terr** , who is entirely immune from bias and other petty human failings. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/252 "2015-07-12T21:14:24Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > You’re basing your defense on the assumption that Trump would only employ well-crafted parallel sentence structure? To be clear, no. I noted ambiguity. I’m arguing that in a prepared Presidential announcement speech that standard techniques such as parallel sentence structure are more probable. And if they are more probable… they are also plausible. Right? I accept the official transcript as presented by the Wall Street Journal and CBS news. If Trump issues a clarification though, I would probably give him the benefit of the doubt. It’s not like there’s a huge substantive difference anyway. I admit that I do like to work off of a grounding of fact. [Mic.com](http://Mic.com)’s presentation with the word, “And” is simply false. > [@Terr](#): > > It’s not “they’re this, they’re that”. It’s “they’re bringing this, they’re bringing this, this.”. Flows perfectly well. > > It’s the structure of “they’re bringing this, they’re bringing that, they’re this” that doesn’t flow. But again, you will read it as your biases direct you. To be honest, neither is exactly Cicero. > [@Terr](#): > > In followup interviews, one of which you linked to, Trump said (about the illegal Mexican immigrants) “Some are rapists, some are killers”. Are you going to “interpret” this as “illegal immigrants are rapists and killers” as well? If Trump says, “Some are rapists, some are killers”, he’s not claiming at that point that “Most are rapists, most are killers.” He doesn’t need to. Translation: a retraction is a retraction. I accept that he has doubled and tripled down on his attacks on undocumented workers. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/253 "2015-07-12T21:27:34Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > To be honest, neither is exactly Cicero. No, but one is a hell of a lot more plausible than the other. And Trump has made no attempt to say that he was really saying that Mexicans were bringing in their rapists (not that it would help in the slightest to suggest that people were bringing in rapists like pets). ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/254 "2015-07-12T21:33:23Z")
Trump has an odd, choppy, ungainly and grammatically incorrect way of speaking and always has. Some of it is his native New York-ese and some of it is a sort of verbal shorthand that doesn’t waste time on grammatical conventions, and some of it is crude exaggeration to get a point across. I have no trouble imagining him as intending to say ‘their rapists’, but at the same time I can easily see how most people would take it as ‘they’re rapists’. That’s how I took it as a matter of fact, but having read and followed Trump for a long time I pretty well knew what he meant even though it didn’t sound that way. As far as why he hasn’t tried to walk it back, generally guys like Trump adhere to the old adage, “Don’t complain, don’t explain”. Trump complains a lot about America’s state of affairs and other things he doesn’t like, but you don’t hear him complaining about his private difficulties or misfortunes and you don’t hear him taking pains to make sure people understand him correctly, or understand and accept whatever it is he’s up to. Trump is a brilliant guy. He always knows what he’s doing and it’s rarely what everyone thinks it is. He’s always got something up his sleeve and is usually working to achieve things about three or four levels beyond what he appears to be doing on the surface. I’m reminded of something his ex-wife Ivana once said about him after they’d split. Remember, this is a woman who worked side by side with him for many years and was a high-powered executive in her own right within his companies. She was worried about the outcome of their divorce and said of him, “You can’t win. He will always find a way to outsmart you!” In the end he did the right thing and took care of her financially, but the point remains that he’s an exceedingly smart and clever guy. People who dismiss Trump as a fool or a dolt or an idiot and who tend to dismiss his business success as due to inherited wealth and serial bankruptcy show by their very words they don’t know what they’re talking about. They remind me of the sort of people who belittle Ringo Starr’s drumming ability. True musicians and true money men (i.e., the bankers and investors who finance Trump’s ventures) know where the talent really lies and you don’t hear them running down the abilities or either Ringo Starr or Donald Trump. I’m far from convinced that Trump is serious about becoming president. It could be that business has become boring and mundane and he relishes the idea of negotiating with politicos and foreign leaders as being more challenging. But you can pretty well bet that whatever he’s up to, he knows damn well what he wants to accomplish by it. And you can lay pretty good odds that he will. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/255 "2015-07-12T21:34:46Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > No, but one is a hell of a lot more plausible than the other. And Trump has made no attempt to say that he was really saying that Mexicans were bringing in their rapists (not that it would help in the slightest to suggest that people were bringing in rapists like pets). “Can I keep him? He followed me home.” :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/256 "2015-07-12T21:54:20Z")
I agree partly with SA. Except for “Brilliant guy”, I’d substitute “Bullshit showman”. And I disagree with the contention that Trump is widely lauded in the business world. I understand that the structure of his deals changed markedly after his first bankruptcy in the early 1990s. He was once a developer. Over time he evolved into a showman. Hey, it’s a living and a pretty good one. I do disagree with the contention that Trump is a skilled businessman: > [@Donald Trump: How did such a nutcase get so rich?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-how-did-such-a-nutcase-get-so-rich/723903/18): > > Sort of. > > Gawker posted a chart of his fluctuating net worth. Objective estimates had it in negative territory in 1988 and the early 1990s. If somebody makes market returns for himself and his investors, I’d say they were competent in business. If your partners take a bath and you wind up in the black, I’d say you were good at negotiation. Or self-promotion. Not business. That’s a wider skill set. Mitt Romney was good at business. I’m not so sure about Donald Trump. > > [http://gawker.com/donald-trumps-grossly-exaggerated-net-worth-a-timeline-1711718182](http://gawker.com/donald-trumps-grossly-exaggerated-net-worth-a-timeline-1711718182) What if somebody said that Trump was brilliant at sales? I think that could be argued objectively. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > But you can pretty well bet that whatever he’s up to, he knows damn well what he wants to accomplish by it. And you can lay pretty good odds that he will. Given the number of his investments that have gone south, I doubt whether Trump is all that good at divine prescience. I’m guessing that he has a decent sense of his ability to improvise: the downside of alienating most of Latin America is manageable, if not necessarily optimal. I would also speculate that Trump knows very well that no battle plan survives contact with the enemy. So you work with decision trees (implicitly) not fixed plans. But yeah: not a fool, dolt or idiot: he only appears that way. And his persona is shaped with intent. And moving beyond his rapist comments rather than clarifying or backpeddling serves his goals I assume. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/257 "2015-07-12T21:56:37Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > To be clear, no. I noted ambiguity. I’m arguing that in a prepared Presidential announcement speech that standard techniques such as parallel sentence structure are more probable. And if they are more probable… they are also plausible. Right?. Sorry, mine was in response to Terr. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/258 "2015-07-12T22:13:14Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I accept that he has doubled and tripled down on his attacks on undocumented workers. Oh, so all the ‘undocumented’ (and why is that, again?) immigrants in this country are ‘workers’, eh? None of them are children or minors or mothers who don’t work? None of them are unemployed? None of them need taxpayer funded assistance of any kind? And more importantly, none of them are criminals? I’m reminded of a post I made in one of the other Trump threads the other day. To wit: > [@](#): > > Saw something on Yahoo last night where Lou Dobbs was running graphics to the effect that Trump is being effective in waking the country up to the criminal element flooding into the country from south of the border, illustrated by the fact that illegal immigrants currently make up 3.5% of the population but account for 36.7% of federal sentences handed down in 2014. I’d imagine the rates are similarly high at the state and county level, since such crimes are more numerous and generally carry lesser sentences. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/259 "2015-07-12T22:47:33Z")
People, people - you’re missing all the action, here. I give you [#trumpyourcat](https://twitter.com/hashtag/trumpyourcat?src=hash&vertical=default&f=images) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679/260 "2015-07-12T22:51:02Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Oh, so all the ‘undocumented’ (and why is that, again?) immigrants in this country are ‘workers’, eh? None of them are children or minors or mothers who don’t work? None of them are unemployed? None of them need taxpayer funded assistance of any kind? > > And more importantly, none of them are criminals? I’ll just hammer the facts. Native born Americans have a higher incarceration rate than immigrants by a wide margin. Crime has declined as illegal immigration has increased. Trump was engaging in ethnically loaded slurs. > **[A century of research says Donald Trump is wrong about immigrants and crime](https://www.vox.com/2015/7/9/8922783/immigrants-crime-donald-trump)** > > Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology,... More generally, I’m not sure how you drew your conclusions. But I don’t want to lose track of the main salient points. ETA: > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’d imagine the rates are similarly high at the state and county level, since such crimes are more numerous and generally carry lesser sentences. Actually they are not. The federal numbers are probably driven by immigration violations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-announces-presidential-run/722679.md?page=14)