# Donald Trump is now a birther **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044 "2011-03-17T17:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/381 "2011-04-11T21:57:22Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Investigation , looking for a birth certificate? Wonder where you would find a thing like that? They must have a staff of “experts” tracking that down. Oh yes, it has to be the proper length. There are short ones, long ones, embossed ones . Just so many that will not do. > When i had to get a copy of mine, i believe I spent 14 bucks and ordered on line. Perhaps I did not know enough to get the right one. I did not ask if it were a long form, properly embossed, signed by the right people certificate. It served as an official ,government document that allowed me to get a passport. > I wonder where the birther nuts got the idea that there are different forms given out by the government that are just not to be trusted. Could it be Rush Limburger, or Fox or Beck. Oh well, at least that Beck ass hole is off the air (for now). ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/382 "2011-04-11T21:58:49Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Actually, **SA** has answered the “where do you think Obama was born” question in previous threads on this subject. His answer, IIRC (and please someone correct me if I’m wrong), was something akin to “I have no idea; I, and everyone else, won’t know for sure until I see the original birth certificate.” It doesn’t matter. No matter what “evidence” is produced, it will never ever be good enough for one reason or another. It’s all bull shit. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/383 "2011-04-11T23:25:24Z")
I think **Starkers** flirts with birtherism because he isn’t quite totally nuts yet, he quails before the abyss. So he changes the subject, its not about what Obama is or is not, its about how vicious and bigoted liberals are, refusing to accept that this is an open question, the jury is out, really, who _knows_ where Obama was born? Really, see, its liberals who aren’t open to new ideas… Trouble is, roughly twenty percent of our population has no such qualms, the flat believe it. Let that chill wind of thought blow through your mind, fully a fifth of our population is crazier than **Starkers.** (When I had that thought, I suddenly had an intense urge to get stinking drunk, shit faced, talk to the dog drunk. So I hope I haven’t done anyone’s sobriety any harm. I mean, you want to stay sane and sober but sometimes feel compelled to choose…) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/384 "2011-04-11T23:37:20Z")
Just make sure you hand your car keys to **Weird With Words** before you crack the seal on the bottle, **luci**. ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/385 "2011-04-12T00:04:14Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > I’ve found that there are a curious number of birthers who also go on and on about states’ rights. Mayhaps there is some sort of overlap between “states’ rights” rhetoric and a paranoid distrust of a black man?? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/386 "2011-04-12T00:37:35Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’m about to call it a night (well, my night anyway) but before I go I’ll just address this real quick. > > I find it ironic that on a board devoted to the elimination of ignorance, it should be considered that the circumstances around Obama’s birth, be they suspicions as to where he was born or disadvantageous information on his original certificate of live birth, should be considered off limits for questions, with only insults and derision considered the appropriate response should anyone dare to voice these questions or suspicions. On a site truly devoted to fighting ignorance, I would think that all comers would be welcome and that anytime a question might be raised for which there is a conclusive answer, that answer would be made. And in the event that the question can’t be answered, that should be acknowledged as unsettled and therefore open to honest debate. There are legitimate questions to be asked about the circumstances of Obama’s birth, and it must be considered that at least some people are not necessarily guided by political motivations or stupidity in asking them, even if the majority may in fact be guided by political motives or perhaps stupidity. Thus, the subject in all its aspects should be open to free and frank discussion with idea in mind of fighting ignorance without name-calling (for as we all know, if a person can’t ask they can’t learn, can they, and since name-calling serves only to inhibit or eliminate inquisitive participation, it runs counter to the boards stated goal of fighting ignorance. I mean, how can ignorance be fought if it can’t even be raised). So I will reiterate for the 174 3/4 time, people…or at least some people…have every right to wonder about these questions and to wonder about such things as why Governor Abercrombie can’t find Obama’s original record; about why an investigation had to be launced by his office in an attempt to find it - an investigation that so far seems to have been futile. And why, as a matter of fact, is information on the original document of live birth (for everyone apparently, not just Obama) held in such strict secrecy? People are suspicious, and rightly so, when the government says to them, “We have the answer you’re looking for, but no one is allowed to see it. Thus, you’ll just have to take our word for it. Sorry.” When confronted with an answer like that, almost any American would respond with questions as to why the document itself is supposed to be kept in such great secrecy, and what information does it contain that compells that great secrecy. And yet here on the ignorance-fighting Straight Dope, Obama’s supporters would have us timidly take their word for it and let the subject drop, as to do otherwise is irrefutable evidence either of political villany or sheer stupidity. And for some reason that just doesn’t seem kosher with regard to the mission of the board. > > I would try to break all that down into more readable paragraphs but the Ambien pill I took half an hour ago is making the typing of even these words without error difficult enough. So I’ll leave them as they are for you to rummage about it if you wish, or you can forego reading it and simply skip ahead to calling me a moron, which would almost certainly be the end result anyway. > > And now I must bid you adieu in hopes of getting to sleep before the sun rises high enough in my window to make it difficult. Ciao. Oh god. You played the “fighting ignorance” card? That’s just unbelievable. Considering that every fucking question put forth by those subhuman birthers has been answered repeatedly should tell you which side of the fighting vs. ignorance that birtherism is on. I’ll give you a hint because I can just tell that you’re slow. It starts with “ignorance” and ends with…okay I screwed the pooch on that one. The point is that while you think you’re being the even handed and fair one in this massive fucking pile on, you’re not. You’re just the smartest kid on the short bus. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/387 "2011-04-12T00:49:03Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Just make sure you hand your car keys to **Weird With Words** before you crack the seal on the bottle, **luci**. These “car keys” of which you speak? This is not the way of my people. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/388 "2011-04-12T01:03:53Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > You’re just the smartest kid on the short bus. It’s only got one passenger, right? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/389 "2011-04-12T01:12:18Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It’s only got one passenger, right? Does the driver count? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/390 "2011-04-12T01:30:11Z")
Are you people misunderstanding what I’m saying by nature or intent? The questions I’ve posed are not my own, but merely logical questions that could reasonably be asked by anyone. There would be no need for these questions had Obama’s original certificate of live birth, it’s location and contents not been so shrouded in mystery. It simply doesn’t make sense to a lot of people that a document such as that can’t be found, and by law couldn’t be viewed by anyone even if it could. Thus, the questions that arise in some people’s eyes are: what information is on the document that is so sensitive that Hawaii’s legislature saw fit to ban it from public view (everyone’s, not just Obama’s); why is there so much confusion over its location and why even the governor of Hawaii himself can’t seem to find it; and why has Obama himself not taken steps to have it located and its contents revealed. When you put the three together, it smacks of chicanery and suggests the likelihood that the document contains damaging or at least very inconvenient information which the administration and/or it’s supporters don’t want revealed. As I’ve said several dozen times by now, I am not a birther and am quite happy to let Obama serve out however many terms he can get with absolutely no knowledge of the circumstances of his birth. Where I quarrel with many Dopers is over the practice of immediately assigning either ignoble motives or stupidity to anyone to whom these quite reasonable questions should occur. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/391 "2011-04-12T01:45:14Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Are you people misunderstanding what I’m saying by nature or intent? > > The questions I’ve posed are not my own, but merely logical questions that could reasonably be asked by anyone. There would be no need for these questions had Obama’s original certificate of live birth, it’s location and contents not been so shrouded in mystery. > > It simply doesn’t make sense to a lot of people that a document such as that can’t be found, and by law couldn’t be viewed by anyone even if it could. You have believed a right-wing lie. The file is known to exist. The former Republican Governor of Hawaii has seen it. The officials at the records department have seen it. It is there. You have been lied to by right-wing media. Abercrombie never said he couldn’t find it. That is a lie. > [@](#): > > Thus, the questions that arise in some people’s eyes are: what information is on the document that is so sensitive that Hawaii’s legislature saw fit to ban it from public view (everyone’s, not just Obama’s); why is there so much confusion over its location and why even the governor of Hawaii himself can’t seem to find it; and why has Obama himself not taken steps to have it located and its contents revealed. When you put the three together, it smacks of chicanery and suggests the likelihood that the document contains damaging or at least very inconvenient information which the administration and/or it’s supporters don’t want revealed. > > As I’ve said several dozen times by now, I am not a birther and am quite happy to let Obama serve out however many terms he can get with absolutely no knowledge of the circumstances of his birth. Where I quarrel with many Dopers is over the practice of immediately assigning either ignoble motives or stupidity to anyone to whom these quite reasonable questions should occur. You are believing a bunch of lies told to you by conspiracy theorists. Repeat, you are a believing a bunch of lies. Please try to understand reality. The actual original birth certificate is not releasable due to Hawaii law. Obama could fly to Hawaii and see it himself, but he couldn’t take it or photocopy it. You are a stupid chump who believes moronic lies because they resonate with your unquestioned ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/392 "2011-04-12T01:55:54Z")
The source of most of Trump’s birther nonsense, including the “$2 million spent to hide Obama’s past” is World Net Daily. The publisher today [admitted they publish misinformation](http://www.salon.com/news/politics/birthers/?story=/politics/war_room/2011/04/11/joseph_farah_wnd_misinformation), then excused it by saying everybody does it. The latest includes photoshopping Obama’s grandparents parents out of a picture, then claiming it was the original that proved Obama was the one faking pictures. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/393 "2011-04-12T01:57:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Are you people misunderstanding what I’m saying by nature or intent? > > The questions I’ve posed are not my own, but merely logical questions that could reasonably be asked by anyone. There would be no need for these questions had Obama’s original certificate of live birth, it’s location and contents not been so shrouded in mystery. > > It simply doesn’t make sense to a lot of people that a document such as that can’t be found, and by law couldn’t be viewed by anyone even if it could. Thus, the questions that arise in some people’s eyes are: what information is on the document that is so sensitive that Hawaii’s legislature saw fit to ban it from public view (everyone’s, not just Obama’s); why is there so much confusion over its location and why even the governor of Hawaii himself can’t seem to find it; and why has Obama himself not taken steps to have it located and its contents revealed. When you put the three together, it smacks of chicanery and suggests the likelihood that the document contains damaging or at least very inconvenient information which the administration and/or it’s supporters don’t want revealed. > > As I’ve said several dozen times by now, I am not a birther and am quite happy to let Obama serve out however many terms he can get with absolutely no knowledge of the circumstances of his birth. Where I quarrel with many Dopers is over the practice of immediately assigning either ignoble motives or stupidity to anyone to whom these quite reasonable questions should occur. Horse shit. The questions have been answered. If you still think it’s reasonable to ask a question that has been answered, you’re an idiot. The birthers are completely and totally wrong. If you think that they have a case or that their questions are in any way intelligent, then you are also completely and totally wrong. It’s just that simple. You belong in the same category as flat earthers, young earthers, creationists, ID believers, people who believe the moon landing was fake, and 9/11 conspiracy theorists. You’ve joined an exclusive club amongst the great mistaken of history. Years from now (or right now) people will look at you and think, “What a maroon. What a nincompoop. What an ignoramus.” But don’t worry your empty little head there SA. Surely you and Glenn Beck will be remembered as slightly better than the rest of them. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/394 "2011-04-12T02:05:07Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The source of most of Trump’s birther nonsense, including the “$2 million spent to hide Obama’s past” is World Net Daily. The publisher today [admitted they publish misinformation](http://www.salon.com/news/politics/birthers/?story=/politics/war_room/2011/04/11/joseph_farah_wnd_misinformation), then excused it by saying everybody does it. The latest includes photoshopping Obama’s grandparents parents out of a picture, then claiming it was the original that proved Obama was the one faking pictures. That photo is hilarious. HIS KNEE IS RIGHT THERE! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/395 "2011-04-12T02:16:37Z")
Well, OK, then Obama can see it if he wants to! Why doesn’t he? Why doesn’t he got to Hawaii, look at the document and tell the American people what it says? What is he afraid of? Maybe he doesn’t want to know? Could that be it? I mean, he can do it, right? Nobody can stop _him_, now can they? And yet, he _doesn’t_. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/396 "2011-04-12T02:26:25Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > You’ve joined an exclusive club amongst the great mistaken of history. Years from now (or right now) people will look at you and think, “What a maroon. What a nincompoop. What an ignoramus.” > [@Lobohan](#): > > You are a stupid chump who believes moronic lies because they resonate with your unquestioned ideology. I find it telling that you people are so eager to label me a birther. That way you can - as is your typical style - simply dismiss the points I’ve raised and pretend they don’t exist by virtue of calling me a moron. So I ask, what lies have I swallowed? Is it not true that Governor Abercrombie, having vowed to take a look at the document himself, launched an investigation into its whereabouts? It is not true that this investigation oddly either found it or found another document pointing to it? And is it not true that the investigation apparently didn’t find it or Governor Abercrombie would have verified its existence by now? Is it not true that some second-hand information says it exists, yet other second-hand information suggests it is either lost or pointed to but not found, and that at any rate all we have to go on as to its existence is second-hand information by state employees? Is it not true that the original document differs in some way from the birth certificate people get when they ask for one, as is evident from the fact that Hawaii among other state legislatures have forbidden their release? Is it not true that Obama appears to have done nothing to try to get the document - or at least its contents - released? And is it not true that the average person, upon hearing of a document concerning the birth of the president which some people say they’ve seen but others mysteriously can’t find, and whose contents by law can’t be released to the public, would find at least reasonable grounds for, if not suspicion, at least curiosity about where it is and what it contains? Now, if anyone would like to point out any factual lies I’ve told in this thread, I’d like to hear what they are. Put up, or admit you’re holding an empty sack. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/397 "2011-04-12T02:42:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It is not true that this investigation oddly either found it or found another document pointing to it? And is it not true that the investigation apparently didn’t find it or Governor Abercrombie would have verified its existence by now? A thing of beauty, these two questions together. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/398 "2011-04-12T02:48:18Z")
This is a factual lie: > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The question isn’t whether or not I could produce my original form. I’m not the President of the United States and an important constitutional question doesn’t ride on my being able to do so. There is no constitutional question riding on the president producing an original birth certificate. If the relevant state authority certifies that the official certificate of live birth is a true representation of the birth of Barack Obama, the constitution has been satisfied. We are a nation of laws, and your opinion does not change the fact that the power to decide what constitutes the official birth record lies with the State of Hawaii. You are liar to suggest otherwise, and that makes you a birther, in spades. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/399 "2011-04-12T03:01:27Z")
**SA** , Obama has proven 100% that he was born in the US. This is something no other POTUS has ever been asked to do, but he has done it. Giving the Birthers any credence at all is akin to giving credence to Truthers or Mooners. Back off of this one and save yourself some diginity. Stick to blaming hippies for all life’s problems. There’s more dignity in it. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/400 "2011-04-12T03:27:00Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > This is a factual lie:There is no constitutional question riding on the president producing an original birth certificate. If the relevant state authority certifies that the official certificate of live birth is a true representation of the birth of Barack Obama, the constitution has been satisfied. We are a nation of laws, and your opinion does not change the fact that the power to decide what constitutes the official birth record lies with the State of Hawaii. > > You are liar to suggest otherwise, and that makes you a birther, in spades. You know how when lying liars who lie don’t have a rebuttal for you’ve said so they make up something else and then accuse you of lying because of what they made up? Yeah, I hate when that happens. 😃 I’ve never claimed Obama doesn’t have legal status to serve as president. I’ve said as much in this very thread. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > SA, Obama has proven 100% that he was born in the US. > > This is something no other POTUS has ever been asked to do, but he has done it. > > Giving the Birthers any credence at all is akin to giving credence to Truthers or Mooners. Back off of this one and save yourself some diginity. Stick to blaming hippies for all life’s problems. There’s more dignity in it. Thanks for the advice, **Dio** , but I’m not defending “birthers”, I’m defending the intelligence and integrity of people who are too busy trying to earn a living and shuttle their kids back and forth between soccer games and play rehearsals to keep up with things like people on this board do, and who hear things like “Obama’s grandmother said he was born in Kenya” only to be followed by statements that something was lost in translation, and they hear of a document that may or may not have bearing upon the circumstances of Obama’s birth, and some people say they have seen it but others can’t find it and besides no one could look at it even if it was found, and then wonder if perhaps there’s something on that document that the powers that be don’t want you to see. Or perhaps something that a low-level functionary didn’t want them to see and trashed or deliberately misfiled it. Who know? All we know for sure is that nobody seems to know where it is or what information it contains that is not on the reissued birth certificate. So to recap, I’m not arguing my own birther beliefs because I have none. I have told no lies. And yes, it would probably be better to drop this thread because I’ve said everything I have to say on the subject and there’s nothing to do now but defend myself from lies and misrepresentations of what I’ve said, and that could go on for days. So I think I’ll take your advice and go back to asking [**elucidator**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13675213&postcount=141) why it’s better for people to indulge their inner weirdo than to have a country where almost nobody has their lives ruined or lost through drugs, where drug crime hasn’t permeated every neighborhood and level of society, where millions of people are growing up raised by parents who are actually children themselves in single-parent homes, where a quarter of high-school girls don’t have STD’s, where one-in-eight high school kids are pregnant, and where grade-schoolers aren’t sucking each other off under their desks. In other words, I want to ask him why it’s more important to be weird than to have an almost complete moral breakdown of society? Ahem…so, anyway, yes, I think I’ll bow out now. Thanks. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044.md?page=21)