# Donald Trump is now a birther **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044 "2011-03-17T17:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/501 "2011-04-17T23:15:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > If I was arguing my own point of view you’d have a point. But I’m not, so you don’t. I already pointed out that you are attempting to defend the intelligence of the birthers, by assuming most of what they spew is based on information from reliable sources. It is not. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Why are you so vested in dishonestly trying to portray me as a birther? I don’t think he is just referring to the birther “logic” but to your incomplete and baseless information that you are using to say that birthers are normal. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Why are so you utterly incapable of understanding that most people don’t give enough of a shit about this issue to investigate it on their own, and why are you so eager to believe that anyone who doesn’t think like you do is a moron? That seems like a rather “moronic” way to go about things if you ask me. 😃 No, once again the moronic thing is to ignore that even the frame that you are using in the attempt to defend the intelligence of the birthers is a dumb one. It is based on ignorance and on the denial that many republicans actually think that it is democrats who are keeping the birther fools in the news because it does make republicans look foolish by association. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/502 "2011-04-17T23:24:14Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, they’re just busy with other things and probably inclined to put more faith in the reportage of major news outlets such as ABC then they are about whatever would pop up on an internet search. So they leave the investigating to the big boys and then wonder what’s up when the big boys report things that create questions. It isn’t a matter of stupidity… Yes it is. Here’s the problem with your hypothetical: If Joe Sixpack hears the news and is really as oblivious as you speculate then he’s probably not going to pursue it. However if the reports alarm him enough, the logical course of action is to do a little research - not demand the president show his birth certificate _again_. The tiniest modicum of research will show him that it’s really just political smearing and not a legitimate issue. When finding out the truth if he still continues to ‘just ask questions’, he’s being disingenuous or just plain stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/503 "2011-04-17T23:25:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I don’t know. Ask the ABC reporter who used the term. You obviously haven’t read your own cite very carefully. The only time the word ‘investigation’ is used is in the following sentence: > [@](#): > > “Our investigation is showing, it actually exists in the archives written down,” Democratic Gov. Neil Abercrombie told Honolulu’s Star-Advertiser. > > “What I can do, and all I have ever said, is that I am going to see to it as governor that I can verify to anyone who is honest about it that this is the case,” he told the paper. It’s clear the word investigation is being used as a verb (and I’ll bet the investigating comprised of nothing more than a leisurely stroll to the basement records room to have a look at said certificate) and not a (proper noun) Official Investigation with investigators cross examining officials in smoke filled rooms full of case files. In your opinion what did you think this investigation actually entailed? What the governor states clearly in the quote is: 1. The certificate exists 2. He will verify this Because that’s all he is legally allowed to do. Understand? To do any more would be **illegal**. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/504 "2011-04-17T23:26:51Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > If I was arguing my own point of view you’d have a point. But I’m not, so you don’t. No. You’ve been quite clear that you don’t have a point of view. You’re a neutral but reasonable observer who’s just asking questions.:rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Why are you so vested in dishonestly trying to portray me as a birther? I’m not portraying you as anything other than a patronizing ignorant jackass, which you are so that pretty much makes it honest and accurate. > [@](#): > > Why are so you utterly incapable of understanding that most people don’t give enough of a shit about this issue to investigate it on their own, and why are you so eager to believe that anyone who doesn’t think like you do is a moron? That seems like a rather “moronic” way to go about things if you ask me. 😃 Once again you make it seem like being mildly up to date about current events is an “investigation.” As if it were some kind of ordeal to be basically knowledgeable. And once again, this has nothing to do with “thinking like me.” It’s a fucking fact. Right up there with gravity, evolution, and your basic inability to process information. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/505 "2011-04-17T23:33:20Z")
Look, this is getting tiresome. I’ve explained more than once that in my view "birthers’ are people cynically trying to exploit the issue for political purposes. I’ve also explained that there are valid and understandable reasons why other people not so motivated can have honest questions to varying degrees of importance to them personally about this issue. It isn’t a case of “birthers” vs. everybody else, and my explanations of how people not birthers can have those questions does not make me a birther. You simply cannot allow yourselves to admit that people can legitimately have questions about this issue without their being a reviled “birther,” and so you come back to it over and over again when you find yourselves without a legitimate defense. You aren’t accomplishing anything but to preach to the choir, and I’m getting tired of having to repeat myself over and over again to refute these same stupid allegations that I’m either a birther or covering for them. So claim what you like. Reasonable people will see the truth and your ilk will continue to believe what they like. C’est la vie. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/506 "2011-04-17T23:36:59Z")
> [@](#): > > You simply cannot allow yourselves to admit that people can legitimately have questions about this issue without their being a reviled “birther,” and so you come back to it over and over again when you find yourselves without a legitimate defense. Which part of the defence put forward is not legitimate? That sounds like an opinion of yours, that there is some defence of the existence of the certificate that is not legitimate? ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/507 "2011-04-17T23:40:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You simply cannot allow yourselves to admit that people can legitimately have questions about this issue without their being a reviled “birther,”… How would we hear about these naives? If they are savvy enough to crow about it on the internet, they are savvy enough to search that same internet for the facts. Based on my last post, do you agree these people won’t stay ignorant for long? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/508 "2011-04-17T23:59:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Look, this is getting tiresome. I know. I’m running out of ways to insult your intelligence. > [@](#): > > I’ve explained more than once that in my view "birthers’ are people cynically trying to exploit the issue for political purposes. Of course you have. > [@](#): > > I’ve also explained that there are valid and understandable reasons why other people not so motivated can have honest questions to varying degrees of importance to them personally about this issue. Ah yes. Curse that single ABC news article that didn’t say what you think it said for causing mass confusion amongst the populace whose time is so very very precious that they cannot spare a mere moment to google something. > [@](#): > > It isn’t a case of “birthers” vs. everybody else, and my explanations of how people not birthers can have those questions does not make me a birther. No. It’s fact vs. fiction. > [@](#): > > You simply cannot allow yourselves to admit that people can legitimately have questions about this issue That’s because they can’t. > [@](#): > > without their being a reviled “birther,” and so you come back to it over and over again when you find yourselves without a legitimate defense. A legitimate defense of not believing the president is a foreign national…you mean all the evidence to the contrary doesn’t count? Or did you mean a legitimate defense for being able to to a five minute internet search. Wasn’t aware I had to defend that. > [@](#): > > You aren’t accomplishing anything but to preach to the choir, and I’m getting tired of having to repeat myself over and over again to refute these same stupid allegations that I’m either a birther or covering for them. Mocking you repeatedly doesn’t count as an accomplishment. I mean, it is so amazingly easy that a caveman could do it, but I’d like to think I’ve still accomplished something. I’ve put up with your bullshit for this long, so that counts, right? > [@](#): > > So claim what you like. Reasonable people will see the truth and your ilk will continue to believe what they like. C’est la vie. Yeah. I’ll make that far fetched claim that the president was born in this country and that the information that proves it is so readily available that a child could find it easily without having to put aside their entire life to do so. All that said Brave Sir Robin, go right ahead and bugger off. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/509 "2011-04-18T00:18:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Reasonable people will see the truth and your ilk will continue to believe what they like. What is meant here by “the truth”? And what do we “continue to believe”? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/510 "2011-04-18T00:47:01Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You simply cannot allow yourselves to admit that people can legitimately have questions about this issue without their being a reviled “birther,” and so you come back to it over and over again when you find yourselves without a legitimate defense. Nonsense. They cannot have legitimate questions. Every example you have proffered of those who might wonder demonstrates that such people are willfully ignorant, blindly stupid, or both. I’m uncertain as to what more you could reasonably expect from us as a legitimate defense. I’ll note that your hero Trump is quoted as stating on Hannity’s show Friday evening, ““Look, he was born ‘Barry Soetero.’ Somewhere along the line, he changed his name,” said Trump – referring to the surname of Obama’s mother’s second husband, Lolo Soetoro, whom she married four years after Obama was born.” ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/511 "2011-04-18T00:47:34Z")
I can kind of see where **Starving Artist** is coming from. I can understand why a reasonable person who is not heavily invested in politics might have a vague idea that there are questions surrounding Obama’s legitimacy. This still does not make the actual questions legitimate, reasonable, rational, or worth paying any attention to. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/512 "2011-04-18T01:16:48Z")
Yes, it does. Let’s say you don’t know much at all about the issue of Obama’s birth and don’t really care other than out of idle curiousity. Then you come across articles or reports such as the one I linked to from ABC News. Do you not think it’s reasonable or rational to look at or hear such a report and wonder why Abercrombie can’t seem to find the birth certificate that the background din of politics and news seems to be making a big deal over? Would you instantly and unerringly know that ABC was full of crap? No. You would tend to believe what they’ve written, and the questions that would arise therefrom would indeed be legitimate. And for that matter, ABC’s reporting itself is legitimate, even if the claims that gave rise to it are specious. Things do not automatically become illegitimate or irrational just because they might cause harm to your guy. Self-serving questions get raised all the time in politics. If they didn’t, and one side only was always unquestionably correct, we would be living under a dictatorship. So it’s necessary for the press, when claims or questions arise, to investigate them. If the investigation itself raises questions, then those questions are legitimate even if the claims or self-serving questions that gave rise to them were specious. So we’re really talking about two kinds of questions. We’ve got self-serving questions which are specious and deliberately intended to create problems, and secondary questions which arise from the debate created by the original questions, and those questions are both legitimate and reasonable. It is this secondary round of questions and the people to whom they occur that I’ve been defending. It is ridiculous to expect people (not that you are, **Bosstone** ) to intuitively know the correct answer in regard to this issue, and even more ridiculous to contend that they are stupid or evil if they don’t. So to recap: there are two different sets of questions involved. There are specious questions that have been raised for political ends, there are legitimate questions which have followed in the wake of the debate caused by the original questions. It is the people with questions of the second type who I am defending. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/513 "2011-04-18T01:48:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yes, it does. No it doesn’t. > [@](#): > > Let’s say you don’t know much at all about the issue of Obama’s birth and don’t really care other than out of idle curiousity. Then you come across articles or reports such as the one I linked to from ABC News. Do you not think it’s reasonable or rational to look at or hear such a report and wonder why Abercrombie can’t seem to find the birth certificate that the background din of politics and news seems to be making a big deal over? Would you instantly and unerringly know that ABC was full of crap? No. You would tend to believe what they’ve written, and the questions that would arise therefrom would indeed be legitimate. Nope. Nope. Nope. The article that you like sooo much (the _one singular article_) doesn’t even say what you think it says. If you read that article and take away from it that there are any questions regarding the presidents birth, then I’m honestly surprised you’re able to read at all. > [@](#): > > And for that matter, ABC’s reporting itself is legitimate, even if the claims that gave rise to it are specious. Things do not automatically become illegitimate or irrational just because they might cause harm to your guy. Self-serving questions get raised all the time in politics. If they didn’t, and one side only was always unquestionably correct, we would be living under a dictatorship. So it’s necessary for the press, when claims or questions arise, to investigate them. If the investigation itself raises questions, then those questions are legitimate even if the claims or self-serving questions that gave rise to them were specious. My guy? This has nothing to do with politics. Maybe if you’re a desperate partisan hack. This is still a matter of actual facts versus complete and utter horse shit. Not right/left. Not liberals/conservatives. Fact vs. shit. > [@](#): > > So we’re really talking about two kinds of questions. We’ve got self-serving questions which are specious and deliberately intended to create problems, and secondary questions which arise from the debate created by the original questions, and those questions are both legitimate and reasonable. It is this secondary round of questions and the people to whom they occur that I’ve been defending. It is ridiculous to expect people (not that you are, **Bosstone** ) to intuitively know the correct answer in regard to this issue, and even more ridiculous to contend that they are stupid or evil if they don’t. I don’t expect people to intuitively know the correct answer. I expect them to take a moment to google search. Said that a few times and you still haven’t managed to raise your last remaining brain cell to grasp that fact. It’s truly stunning that you’ve gone from people having to set aside their lives all the way to people having to intuitively know the answer. Are you so completely and fundamentaly screwed up that you can’t understand how easy it is to find the answer? Do you really think that it’s something you either are expected to just know or to set aside a large chunk of time to find out? I think you’re so fucking enamored with yourself as being the voice of rationality that you cannot even percieve how completely wrong you are. This isn’t politics. This isn’t some sort of information that only the priviliged elite have and that the average Joe can’t hope to find. The information is actually right fucking out there for anyone to find. Easily. > [@](#): > > So to recap: there are two different sets of questions involved. There are specious questions that have been raised for political ends, there are legitimate questions which have followed in the wake of the debate caused by the original questions. It is the people with questions of the second type who I am defending. There are still no legitimate questions. The answers are there for anyone who looks to find easily. If you choose not to look, that’s on you. So to rerererererererererererecap, you’re still an idiot. You’re still wrong. These are things, like the presidents birth place, that there are no reasonable doubts about. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/514 "2011-04-18T02:34:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Look, this is getting tiresome. I’ve explained more than once… Then why keep hitting your head against a wall? This is like **Bricker** spending two weeks and a hundred posts “just trying to get everyone to admit that they were wrong about a point he was trying to make a month ago.” Maybe we should have a limit on the number of times you can post to each thread. That way, once you’ve said “No no no! Can’t _any_one else _see_ what I’m _say_ing?” twenty times, you have to move on to a different subject. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/515 "2011-04-18T03:10:11Z")
Why is it on me to move on? Why is it me whose number of posts should to be limited? In case you haven’t noticed, most of my posts are a response to things other posters have said to me, or accusations they’ve made about me, and if anybody is repeating the same thing over and over it is them. I merely post my opinion on the matter, and other posters insult me and try to misconstrue what I’ve said. So I say it again in such a way as to explain what I’m saying and why, and other posters insult me and try to misconstrue what I’ve said. And so on and so on, apparently ad infinitum. Nor am I pleading with people to please understand what I’m saying - as you so amusingly suggest; I’m continuing to contest false assertions about what I’ve said, or I’m trying to clarify a misleading usage of terms. (Or, as in the case of a poster such as **Bosstone** , to clarify what seems to be an honest misunderstanding.) So you’ve got me explaining in a calm and reasoned way my view on the so-called birther issue, and then you’ve got people insulting me, calling me names, and trying to mislead people as to what I’ve said in response. So why is it again that my posts should be curtailed? It can’t really be because I’m saying the same thing over and over, because my oponents are doing the same thing…and in a more egregious way. All I can conclude is that you agree with them and you simply want me to shut up so they can appear to win. N’est-ce pas? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/516 "2011-04-18T03:38:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Why is it on me to move on? Because you are no longer entertaining to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/517 "2011-04-18T03:40:26Z")
You’re trying to argue that a half-formed opinion backed up by nothing more than what one heard as a quick soundbite on the news is perfectly legitimate. What’s worse is that when it comes to voting, it _is_. So there’s absolutely no shame in pushing the lie as hard and as often as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/518 "2011-04-18T04:08:57Z")
I hate to break it to you, but the majority of the voting public votes based on half-formed opinions of the issues…if even that. Whatever the subject - AGW, the economy, social programs, foreign affairs, whatever - the vast majority of people who vote have only the most scant and superficial understanding of the issues they’re basing their votes upon. Provided, of course, that they’re not just voting based on how attractive someone is or because they like watching them on television (_The View_, _Joy Behar_) or listening to them on the radio (_Rush Limbaugh_, _Glenn Beck_). I’d wager not one out of twenty people on the street is as well informed as the average liberal or conservative Doper, and even we don’t know anywhere near as much about the issues as we like to think we do. I hate to break this to you as well, but here on the Dope we’re little more than a large group of Monday-morning and next-Monday-morning quarterbacks who think we know more about how to run a football team than the coach does. There are a plethora of things that go on behind the scenes when it comes to and drives the issues that no one knows about but the people involved with them. And they are too complex and multi-faceted for anyone to absorb even if the players involved tried to educate them. This is why we elect leaders. It’s their job to get up to speed on this stuff, and they are the ones we have to rely on to learn about them and do what’s best. And this is why the Jackies and the Jim Bobs pay scant attention to what people are saying about things like Obama’s birth certificate. They don’t know the real facts, and they don’t know who to believe when someone claims to have them. And so they leave it up to their leaders in congress and to judges in the courts to sort it all out. And you know what? The biggest difference between them and us is that they know they don’t know everything. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/519 "2011-04-18T04:20:00Z")
I hate to break it to you, but I’ve read enough bullshit for one night. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/520 "2011-04-18T04:50:46Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > I can kind of see where **Starving Artist** is coming from. I can understand why a reasonable person who is not heavily invested in politics might have a vague idea that there are questions surrounding Obama’s legitimacy. > > This still does not make the actual questions legitimate, reasonable, rational, or worth paying any attention to. I’m still trying to make sense of Republicans using the blood of Democrats’ babies to make bread. I’ve been a bit busy, however, just leading my working class life to pay attention to all this political stuff. All I know is that there are questions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044.md?page=27)