# Donald Trump is now a birther **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044 "2011-03-17T17:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/561 "2011-04-19T00:26:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …Respect which should take the form of free speech and not limitations on how many times a conservative poster can post to a thread. Right? Awwww. You need a minute alone, big guy, kinda pull yourself together? How about a hanky? Yeah, its kinda crusty but I’m pretty sure that’s nasal. Pretty sure. Here. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/562 "2011-04-19T01:16:23Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’ve been debated? By whom? You? All you’ve done is claim I’m wrong by virtue of the fact that, according to you, anyone with questions on this issue is teh stupit, and then you throw stupid insults. Go back and read the damn thread yourself. It’s not my job to hold your hand. > [@](#): > > See? There you go again. A perfect example of the **Harborwolf** style of debate. You might want to check a dictionary if you think that’s what debating is, 'cause that ain’t it. I’d tell you the same, but since you clearly can’t read what would be the point? I already said that I have no interest in debating you. Not to mention that your only point is an entirely hypothetical scenario in which people are too busy to look shit up. What’s to debate? The main thrust of that pile of shit you call an argument is the assumption that people are just too busy. If you want to stretch it to three points, you have (1)People are too busy. (2)Looking stuff up on the internet is so hard. Frowny face cause it’s hard.:(. and (3)I hate people that don’t think like me. Why the fuck should I bother to debate that shit? It’s not an argument. > [@](#): > > And if you think the childish nonsense you’ve been spewing all over this thread has caused me to bleed, you are as delusional as you are lousy at debating. And that’s quite a lot. Again you think we’re debating. That’d require me to give a fuck and you to have an argument. Or a fucking brain. At least I’m honest about the crap I’m spewing. You’re a pig dropping turds acting like the goose laying golden eggs. > [@](#): > > Says you. What if they’re in the middle of cooking dinner or out in their car when they hear it? What if the doorbell rings and it’s pizza time? What if as they’re hearing it their kids what to be taken somewhere? What if another family member is on the computer? What if they’re on dial-up and they don’t want to bother with it? What if they don’t have a computer? What if they don’t know how to get dressed and wear shirts for pants and pants for shirts? What if Obama’s brownshirted jackbooted thugs are kicking down the door and won’t let them watch the rest of the news? What if you pulled another hypothetical scenario out and treated it like it was a good argument? > [@](#): > > It’s illogical (and, dare I say it - stupid) to think that the instant somebody reads or hears something about Obama’s birth they’re going to drop everything else going on in their life and rush to Google to ferret out the answer, Drop everything that is going on with their life. Cause the internet is hard and it takes soooooooooo long to do it. > [@](#): > > and if they don’t, they’re stupid. I’m pretty sure you already know that, but since it’s all you seem to have to hang your hat on to claim these people are stupid, you keep repeating it over and over like it’s some great revelation. But it isn’t. It’s ridiculous. Nope. Makes perfect sense to me to expect people to take the small amount of time necessary to become informed citizens. If they don’t, that’s on them. > [@](#): > > And if you weren’t a leftie If I had more time, I’d write this to the tune of “If I were a rich man” from Fiddler on the Roof. > [@](#): > > I’m sure you’d have been told dozens of times in this thread already that you’re being childish and ridiculous and accomplishing nothing but to show your ass. Golly. That’s hurtful. Thank god I’m protected by my vast lefty credentials. :dubious:What the fuck makes me a lefty? Disagreeing with you? If that were the case, the dems would never lose another election. Once again you just can’t get past political labels. Schmuck. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/563 "2011-04-19T01:18:41Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Drop everything that is going on with their life. When people think there’s a massive fraud being perpetrated, I dunno, I would kind of expect them to get off their asses and do some legwork. ---
**Author:** ![MacCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maccat/32/216_2.png) [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/564 "2011-04-19T01:30:36Z")
I think the Birther issue actually benefits the Dems, having that benighted 18% out there scaring independents and moderates. If they were as skilled at underhanded politics as the GOPers, it would not surprise me to learn the Dems keep it out there. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/565 "2011-04-19T02:02:10Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > What the fuck makes me a lefty? The silly and childish way you’re behaving; the fact that you can’t seem to get your head around the fact that people can’t logically be expected to race to the internet everytime they hear something political; and the fact that you obviously feel that there is no possible way for anyone to think or behave differently than you think they should without it automatically meaning the person in question is stupid are all pretty good indicators. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > When people think there’s a massive fraud being perpetrated, I dunno, I would kind of expect them to get off their asses and do some legwork. Ah, here’s another one. This looks like a good time to restate an excellent post I made upthread which has been utterly and predictably ignored ever since. To wit: > [@](#): > > **Starving Artist** : I hate to break it to you, but the majority of the voting public votes based on half-formed opinions of the issues…if even that. Whatever the subject - AGW, the economy, social programs, foreign affairs, whatever - the vast majority of people who vote have only the most scant and superficial understanding of the issues they’re basing their votes upon. Provided, of course, that they’re not just voting based on how attractive someone is or because they like watching them on television (The View, Joy Behar) or listening to them on the radio (Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck). > > I’d wager not one out of twenty people on the street is as well informed as the average liberal or conservative Doper, and even we don’t know anywhere near as much about the issues as we like to think we do. I hate to break this to you as well, but here on the Dope we’re little more than a large group of Monday-morning and next-Monday-morning quarterbacks who think we know more about how to run a football team than the coach does. There are a plethora of things that go on behind the scenes when it comes to and drives the issues that no one knows about but the people involved with them. And they are too complex and multi-faceted for anyone to absorb even if the players involved tried to educate them. This is why we elect leaders. It’s their job to get up to speed on this stuff, and they are the ones we have to rely on to learn about them and do what’s best. And this is why the Jackies and the Jim Bobs pay scant attention to what people are saying about things like Obama’s birth certificate. They don’t know the real facts, and they don’t know who to believe when someone claims to have them. And so they leave it up to their leaders in congress and to judges in the courts to sort it all out. And you know what? The biggest difference between them and us is that they know they don’t know everything. In other words, there are millions of people out there who don’t know shit about Obama’s birth other than the fact that there’s some kind of controversy over it…if even that. And believe it or not, they don’t really give a shit. They entrust congress and the courts to sort it out and decide what’s right, and if they occasionally hear something that arouses their curiosity or something that doesn’t seem to add up, they’re going to wonder about it. But they don’t immediately hop on Google begin feverishly to ferret out the truth of the matter. But that doesn’t mean they’re stupid, and it doesn’t mean they’re doing anything wrong; it simply means they have other priorities in their lives. ---
**Author:** ![MacCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maccat/32/216_2.png) [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/566 "2011-04-19T02:12:19Z")
Man yells at sky… ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/567 "2011-04-19T02:18:34Z")
So Birthers are not necessarily stupid. They are merely ill informed (or in other words, have heard a bunch of lies) and are too apathetic and busy to take the enormous amount of time (few minutes) to find out the truth. From this you deduce that the Birthers have a valid point of view. If deliberate, willfull ignorance, accepting obvious bullshit as truth, and laziness can be defined as " a point of view", I guess you are right. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/568 "2011-04-19T02:20:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The silly and childish way you’re behaving; the fact that you can’t seem to get your head around the fact that people can’t logically be expected to race to the internet everytime they hear something political; and the fact that you obviously feel that there is no possible way for anyone to think or behave differently than you think they should without it automatically meaning the person in question is stupid are all pretty good indicators. Wow. Once again you’ve missed the fucking point just so you could make a wildly inaccurate exaggeration. Good show sir. > [@](#): > > Ah, here’s another one. This looks like a good time to restate an excellent post I made upthread which has been utterly and predictably ignored ever since. You’ve yet to make an excellent post. You’ve yet to make an acceptable post. If we were judging on actual content, I’d say you’ve yet to make a single post. You think you’re being ignored or misunderstood (like a fucking teenager) and you’re not. I’ve read your posts and not missed a single failed attempt at a point. > [@](#): > > In other words, there are millions of people out there who don’t know shit about Obama’s birth other than the fact that there’s some kind of controversy over it…if even that. And believe it or not, they don’t really give a shit. They entrust congress and the courts to sort it out and decide what’s right, and if they occasionally hear something that arouses their curiosity or something that doesn’t seem to add up, they’re going to wonder about it. But they don’t immediately hop on Google begin feverishly to ferret out the truth of the matter. But that doesn’t mean they’re stupid, and it doesn’t mean they’re doing anything wrong; it simply means they have other priorities in their lives. “feverishly to ferret out the truth.” God damn. Again you make it seem as if this is something they have to dedicate more than five fucking minutes to puzzle out. As if this were some kind of fucking ordeal to be endured. And if they don’t give a shit, they aren’t fucking thinking about it. That’s what “not giving a shit” means. You don’t even know the meaning of the words you’re using and you want everybody to respect your opinion and give you the serious debate you deserve. You’re getting the debate and the respect you deserve. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/569 "2011-04-19T02:50:38Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > You’re getting the debate and the respect you deserve. I haven’t asked for a debate, I’m merely stating an opinion. I said was that you’re doing a shitty job of debating because that’s obviously what you’re trying to do. And I never asked for respect. That was a self-serving dodge of **luci’s** intended to set him up as the arbiter of whether or not I deserve it. P.S. - You’re wrong about “self-serving” too. For example, I don’t give a shit about the brouhaha over Obama’s birth so I haven’t looked into it. Still, I’ll argue with idiots like you over whether that is acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/570 "2011-04-19T02:52:27Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > If I had more time, I’d write this to the tune of “If I were a rich man” from Fiddler on the Roof. If you weren’t a leftie _“gimme, gimme, gimme this and gimme those and gimme that”_ All day long you’d show me some respect (And you’d wear a coat and hat!) Anybody want to take it from here? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/571 "2011-04-19T03:01:15Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > For example, I don’t give a shit about the brouhaha over Obama’s birth so I haven’t looked into it. If it’s not too much trouble, might we ask that if you are willfully ignorant about a subject (in that you “don’t give a shit about it”, and “haven’t looked into it”)… That you kindly shut the fuck up about the subject? And not jump in to defend the willfully ignorant who have an opinion without knowing shit? Thanks so much in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/572 "2011-04-19T03:24:27Z")
Sorry, I really haven’t been talking about me. I’ve been challenging the incredibly stupid charge that anyone who may have a question arise about Obama’s birth are themselves stupid. Plus, a question and an opinion are two different things. Plus, I note yet another request that I shut up about this issue. Why do you fear alternative explanations? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/573 "2011-04-19T03:35:02Z")
\*If I weren’t a leftie I’d have gone to business school instead of bars! I’d screw some shmuck out of everything he owned! And spend it all on stupid wars If I weren’t a leftie It would bother me, there’s far too many people having fun They walk around with a big grin on their face Though they went to Hell in Nineteen-sixty-one!\* Apologies to Irving Berlin, Irving Feldman and that grasshopper from the joke… ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/574 "2011-04-19T03:47:52Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Sorry, I really haven’t been talking about me. I’ve been challenging the incredibly stupid charge that anyone who may have a question arise about Obama’s birth are themselves stupid. Originally it maaaaaaay had been, nowadays it \*\*is \*\*a stupid question and after all this time, \*\*now \*\*we can say that they are stupid if they continue, this is even more clear when many conservatives are on the record of calling the people still pushing this “cranks”. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Plus, a question and an opinion are two different things. After 3 years, the law books talk a lot about an statute of limitations, it does not apply to stupid questions, but as virtually all the questions have also been dealt with in a court of law, we know already of many the times birther arguments have been dismissed. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Plus, I note yet another request that I shut up about this issue. Why do you fear alternative explanations? Uh, your point is to defend people who mislead, are dunderheads or trolls, let them speak then, you are not offering any alternative explanations that hold up at all. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/575 "2011-04-19T03:53:08Z")
Oh, they hold up just fine to people not emotionally and politically invested in denying them. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/576 "2011-04-19T04:06:35Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Oh, they hold up just fine to people not emotionally and politically invested in denying them. Actually, judges are taking them to task for accusing the reality based majority in this issue of being traitors. They also hysterically resort to tell others to perjure themselves to keep this going. [http://washingtonindependent.com/65703/orly-taitz-smacked-down-birther-lawsuit-dismissed](http://washingtonindependent.com/65703/orly-taitz-smacked-down-birther-lawsuit-dismissed) > [@](#): > > Central District of California Judge David O. Carter has dismissed Barnett et al v. Obama et al, Orly Taitz’s most successful lawsuit — that is, the one that got the furthest through the legal system — demanding proof of the president’s citizenship. The entire decision is here, and it’s devastating to Taitz. Here’s an excerpt of the disposition, with emphasis in the original: > > > [@](#): > > > > … Plaintiffs have attacked the judiciary, including every prior court that has dismissed their claim, as unpatriotic and even treasonous for refusing to grant their requests and for adhering to the terms of the Constitution which set forth its jurisdiction. Respecting the constitutional role and jurisdiction of this Court is not unpatriotic. Quite the contrary, this Court considers commitment to that constitutional role to be the ultimate reflection of patriotism. Therefore, for the reasons stated above, Defendants’ Motion to Dismiss is GRANTED. > > That’s the end of the story. But the ruling is limned with criticism of Taitz for the screwball, media-grabbing tactics she used to promote her doomed, frivolous lawsuit. Here, Carter confirms that he got complaints from Taitz witnesses like Larry Sinclair, claiming that Taitz wanted them to lie on the stand. > > > [@](#): > > > > [T]he Court has received several sworn affidavits that Taitz asked potential witnesses that she planned to call before this Court to perjure themselves. This Court is deeply concerned that Taitz may have suborned perjury through witnesses she intended to bring before this Court. While the Court seeks to ensure that all interested parties have had the opportunity to be heard, the Court cannot condone the conduct of Plaintiffs’ counsel in her efforts to influence this Court. Even Bill O’Reilly commented that the “birther” lawsuits are “crazy.” ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/577 "2011-04-19T04:15:51Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Plus, I note yet another request that I shut up about this issue. Why do you fear alternative explanations? Only because you have admitted that on the subject of Obama’s birthplace, you you “don’t give a shit about it”, and “haven’t looked into it” I respectfully ask that when you “don’t give a shit about” a topic, or “haven’t looked into” a topic… That you refrain from comment on said topic, lest you reveal yourself to be .. shall we say kindly… less than knowledgeable about the topic. Defending others who believe in nonsense because they can’t be bothered to find out the truth… That does not make you look all that … knowledgeable… either. I do this because\* I care\*. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/578 "2011-04-19T04:23:39Z")
I will consider supporting Trump for president once he presents a copy of his own bonafide and completely legitimate death certificate. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/579 "2011-04-19T05:13:13Z")
Nonsense, he’s clearly [del]white[/del] American. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/580 "2011-04-19T05:22:34Z")
It just occured to me that I may have never before heard a Doper offer ignorance of a subject as validation of an opinion on that subject. Many is the time I’ve heard dubious claims of expertise to support an argument, but unsubstantiated claims of ignorance? That is truly thinking inside the rocks, the product of a steel-trap mind rusted shut. If that should prove true, I think we should honor this moment with a salute to original thinking, and let it be known, now and forever, as the **Starkers** Gambit. So let it be written, so let it be done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044.md?page=30)