# Donald Trump is now a birther **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044 "2011-03-17T17:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/681 "2011-04-21T10:23:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And that’s just a minor sprinkling of the type of the debate I’ve been getting from your “more or less sane” posters over the last eight to ten pages. Why do you suppose that’s the type of response you’ve been getting? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/682 "2011-04-21T11:01:51Z")
This will be my last post for tonight/this morning. The reason I’m getting the type of response I am from my opponents in this thread is because they’re firing the only ammunition they’ve got. Insulting people, calling them names and repeating some version or another of “Nuh-uh” is not substantive rebuttal. Nobody has produced any kind of argument to show that I’m wrong, or why I’m wrong. And the reason for that is that they can’t. There can be no realistic denial that the country is full of perfectly intelligent people who for any number of reasons lack the facts of Obama’s birth. It’s silly to claim otherwise, but my opponents, having locked themselves into that ridiculous stance, try all sorts of dodges to obscure that fact. They ask what _my_ beliefs are; they claim that I’m a “birther”; they move the goalposts (from benignly ignorant to ‘willfully ignorant’ to ‘there’s no excuse for ignorance’); they expect unrealistic human behavior and pretend that the lack of it proves their point, etc., etc., etc. Then failing that, they fall back on denials and insults and rely on their standing as good board liberals to garner support, confident that their non-rebuttals will find a willing, supportive audience nonetheless. And to that extent, they’re right. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/683 "2011-04-21T11:13:05Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > There can be no realistic denial that the country is full of perfectly intelligent people who for any number of reasons lack the facts of Obama’s birth. “Lacking the facts” does not equate to “doubt the validity of.” ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/684 "2011-04-21T11:14:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The reason I’m getting the type of response I am from my opponents in this thread is because they’re firing the only ammunition they’ve got. At least we’ve got ammunition. You’ve only got your dreamed up example, which makes you the kid with his fingers in a vague pistol shape going “pew pew pew pew.” > [@](#): > > Insulting people, calling them names and repeating some version or another of “Nuh-uh” is not substantive rebuttal. It’s as substantive as you’ve earned, and you’ve ignored the more substantial because you get offended when somebody calls you a name…or something you percieve as a name. > [@](#): > > Nobody has produced any kind of argument to show that I’m wrong, or why I’m wrong. And the reason for that is that they can’t. I agree with this. We can’t prove you wrong because you made up your case. You’ve imagined it and you change it every time somebody backs you into a corner. It’s like arguing with a second grader about the existence of the easter bunny. > [@](#): > > There can be no realistic denial that the country is full of perfectly intelligent people who for any number of reasons lack the facts of Obama’s birth. It’s silly to claim otherwise, but my opponents, having locked themselves into that ridiculous stance, try all sorts of dodges to obscure that fact. They ask what _my_ beliefs are; they claim that I’m a “birther”; they move the goalposts (from benignly ignorant to ‘willfully ignorant’ to ‘there’s no excuse for ignorance’); they expect unrealistic human behavior and pretend that the lack of it proves their point, etc., etc., etc. Then failing that, they fall back on denials and insults and rely on their standing as good board liberals to garner support, confident that their non-rebuttals will find a willing, supportive audience nonetheless. And to that extent, they’re right. Ah yes. The only reason I haven’t been turned on is because I’m a liberal and everyone else is liberal. That explains the conservatives on the board rushing to your defense…anybody else here crickets? I’d also like to know what exactly it is about expecting someone who is curious about something to do a bit more digging that qualifies as “unrealistic human behavior.” Whenever you get a chance. I know you’re too busy for certain things but not to busy for other things. Things that I don’t understand. Because I’m a liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/685 "2011-04-21T11:30:46Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Ah yes. The only reason I haven’t been turned on is because I’m a liberal and everyone else is liberal. Harborwolf, you ignorant slut… Anyway, at this stage I’ve lost track of Starving Artist’s original point. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/686 "2011-04-21T11:44:37Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Believe it or not, there are people out there who are most certainly not morons but who do not follow these issues all that closely because they have families and lives, who hear or read about how the original can’t be found or how they’re supposed to take some nurse’s word for its existence, or how the governor of Hawaii is determined to “get to the bottom” of where it is and look at it for himself, and wonder quite logically if there aren’t shenanigans of some sort going on. He’s had quite a few points here. He started out defending Trump’s financial acumen and then wandered into kinda-but-not-really defending the birther movement and then landing about page 7 with the quote above which is where I think we are now. And I kinda agree with him. Where we part company is his assuming that his hypothetical average Joe is going to think that the shenanigans are coming from Obama’s camp rather than some group of loonies like Orly Taitz et al. But I’m also wondering what he believes about all this personally. It’s like one of those campaign survey phone calls you get where they swear that their results are unbiased but the questions are so weighted to one side that you know they have an axe to grand. And he certainly does spend an inordinate amount of time in a thread about a subject he admitted himself he was “not that heavily invested in.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/687 "2011-04-21T12:03:35Z")
I’m noted the same thing in threads where people who say they aren’t opposed to gay marriage advance arguments opposing gay marriage just because some people they know are opposed to gay marriage and they aren’t _bad_ people and maybe there’s _some_ merit to their position… By the way, has Trump weighed in on gay marriage? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/688 "2011-04-21T12:59:15Z")
A gift for \*\*Starving Artist \*\*for … um … idunno, Mother’s Day I guess, to bolster his, “hey, reasonable people believe this utter tripe through no fault of their own” bullshit: Here are 10 other issues on top of Birtherism that a lot of people buy into with completely reasonable and logical outlooks even though I guess they don’t really care nor apparently do they have the time, energy or skill-set to figure out the truth. [11 political myths that we still fall for](http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/04/20/political.myths/index.html?hpt=C2) I might point out the reasonable and logical comments from people internet savvy enough to figure out CNN’s message boards but apparently completely flummoxed by Google. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/689 "2011-04-21T14:34:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Starving Artist** > There can be no realistic denial that the country is full of perfectly intelligent people who for any number of reasons lack the facts of Obama’s birth. > [@Eutychus](#): > > “Lacking the facts” does not equate to “doubt the validity of.” Yes indeed. If these mythical people simply “lack the facts”, why are they so vociferous about the subject? Or why, in surveys, do they indicate that they believe Obama was born in Kenya - since they lack the facts? We were talking about “Birthers” here. Not people who live in a cave with no access to media who have no knowledge about anything political whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/690 "2011-04-21T16:14:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Truthers got short shrift around here and got mocked without mercy when they posted here. You don’t hurt yourself by being willing to call out the nutters and morons on your own side. We do it. So that makes you what, a moderate Truther? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/691 "2011-04-21T16:15:23Z")
I’m not any kind of a truther. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/692 "2011-04-21T16:18:21Z")
So, in all those Pit threads where people call you a liar, they’r – HEY, WHO THREW THAT!??! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/693 "2011-04-21T16:55:51Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > We were talking about “Birthers” here. Not people who live in a cave with no access to media who have no knowledge about anything political whatsoever. Well, I’ll give you the “don’t live in caves” and “access to media” parts… ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/694 "2011-04-21T17:51:38Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I don’t get this at all - FOURTEEN pages? REALLY!?!? This thread went off the rails back on page 5 or so when **SA** reared his head and started spouting his BS. > > I don’t know what is more pathetic - his totally senile blithering or the fact that normally more or less sane posters continue to engage him! Did all of you have your cable go out or something? Yeah. This is boring. We should get back to what this thread was about, Donsld Trump and that ridiculous combover. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/695 "2011-04-21T18:57:32Z")
Why not, I’ll give it a shot. I’ll grant you your ignorent, poorly informed populace. Where you miss the mark, IMHO, is in your defense that the questions posed by the ignorant are somehow worthy. Whether they believe the moon is made of green cheese, or the earth is flat, or whatever, if their beliefs are _clearly wrong_ they should simply be corrected (or ignored), their misunderstanding should not be taken for evidence that there is something of merit to their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/696 "2011-04-21T19:06:28Z")
> [@Wile\_E](#): > > Yeah. This is boring. We should get back to what this thread was about, Donsld Trump and that ridiculous combover. It’s not a comb over. It’s a comb forward. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/697 "2011-04-21T19:11:06Z")
And how long is “The Donald’s” investigation going to take, anyway? He’s a man of action, used to results! Where’s the smoking gun? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/698 "2011-04-22T02:04:09Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Still, that raises an interesting point. I’m sure that you, for example, are willfully ignorant of a very great deal. We all are. No one can know everything there is to know about everything. Yes, there are hundreds of things I don’t know about. Thousands. Millions. But, I recognize and admit that. I don’t leap to conclusions and make decisions out of ignorance. I seek to educate myself. I ask questions in good faith, and accept the answers I get. And I don’t spread unfounded rumors to sow doubt in others. After all, I’m in the same boat with almost everybody else in the country; I have not seen Barack Obama’s original birth certificate, bound and kept safe amidst the public records of the State of Hawaii. But I accept the statements of the people who have. I trust that Hawaii has the facilities keep track of such things, the experts to watch over them, the procedures to release and certify such facts, and the integrity to back it all up. And I’m satisfied that all those things have taken place in this instance. And suppose there are such people as you have posited in this thread; well-meaning but informed by a scrap of misinformation. I don’t see anything to excuse such people, but an even greater indictment of those who would spread such rumors. **Starving** , do you think Donald Trump is one of those people who is so busy as to be excused for doubting the president’s citizenship and elligibility to hold the office? Someone might have time to hear only one thing about Obama’s birth, and it will be a statement from Trump. He is spreading misinformation on the subject. Whether it is out of ignorance or malice (or attempting to appeal to such things in others), shame on him. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/699 "2011-04-22T02:06:36Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > What’s the most frightening thought here? > > [ul] > [li]Karl Rove takes Bachmann seriously enough to advise her[/li][li]Bachmann has just enough brains to listen to him[/li][li]Bachmann listening to him implies she \*\*_is_ \*\*seriously considering being a candidate[/li][/ul] [ul][li]Bachmann is more interested in being seriously considered for a Cabinet job than getting re-elected.[/ul][/li]Which would mean the she really thinks a Cabinet job is a real possibility (Birther’s aren’t taking these defections as simple changes of mind, they’re evidence that you’re part of the conspiracy.), unless she’s already sitting on an offer from FOXNews. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > … _Piqued._ … Nah, they saw the headline, read it, and their curiosity peaked. If it had been piqued, they would have, at least, clicked the fuckin’ link. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044/700 "2011-04-22T02:20:54Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > And how long is “The Donald’s” investigation going to take, anyway? He’s a man of action, used to results! Where’s the smoking gun? Gary Busey is still smoking it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-is-now-a-birther/575044.md?page=36)