# Donald Trump more popular than Hillary Clinton **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 19, 2017, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632 "2017-07-19T09:31:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/121 "2017-07-20T02:36:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Did someone use “Elizabeth Warren” and “charisma” in the same sentence without including the word “not” or “no”? Well, you basically made my point. Elizabeth Warren is not regarded as “charismatic”; she’s “angry” and “XXXchy” and conservatives probably have a few four letter expletives they can toss in for good measure. I mean, how do we know she’s not really a lesbian, right?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/122 "2017-07-20T02:42:02Z")
I’ve only read the first page of this thread but you can complain when trump has been on the receiving end of a 25 year hate campaign that has taken on all the attributes of a cottage industry. Also there is a misconception that under a popular vote system that certain cities or states would choose the president. They wouldn’t, _people_ would. And _nobody’s_ vote would have more impact than anybody else’s, a fact which I suspect is at the core of many people’s objection to such a system. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/123 "2017-07-20T04:11:06Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > In other words, screw all the voters in the smaller rural states, who cares what they think anyway. The big cities and densely populated areas should decide the Presidency. Yeah! Fuck those city folk! What do people in the cultural and economic heart of the country know about politics? It’s totally better to have a system where a vote in Wyoming is worth several times what a vote in California is worth - several hundred times in the senate. Disproportionately favoring a small, mostly fucking _stupid_ portion of the populace is much better. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/124 "2017-07-20T04:24:28Z")
In fact, let’s go a step further. Each county should be worth exactly as much as each other county. It’s not fair that Los Angeles county be worth so much more than Nye county in the election - after all, Nye county is _so much bigger_! Several times bigger, in fact! After all, clearly what matters isn’t the number of people who vote, but the amount of _area_ involved. Fuck those city folk who pile in, what do _they_ know? Sure, this means that if you live in Nye county, your vote is worth over 200 times what an LA county voter’s is worth. But this is clearly both okay and a natural part of a democratic system. One man, one vote, one totally unreasonable skewing of what that vote is worth based on factors that no longer hold any real relevance. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/125 "2017-07-20T05:11:23Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > In other words, screw all the voters in the smaller rural states, who cares what they think anyway. The big cities and densely populated areas should decide the Presidency. Donald Trump won in large states, actually. The use of bloc voting by large states outstrips whatever small advantage the small states get from apportionment. Pennsylvania slinging around its entire haul of 20 electoral votes based on a tiny 44000-vote lead was a lot more consequential than Vermont having a little bit more of a say. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/126 "2017-07-20T05:15:12Z")
I have heard all the explanations as for why Hillary is so hated, and I am still confounded. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/127 "2017-07-20T05:23:10Z")
But there’s more of those smaller states and the advantage there is cumulative. Admittedly the 2000 map illustrates this better than the 2016 one does. But here’s the problem. Prior to 2000, the popular vote and the electoral vote parting company hadn’t happened all that often. But now it’s happened twice in recent memory. And all the rationalizations about “protecting against tyranny of the majority” or “allowing the smaller states to have a voice” begin to sound a lot like window dressing for “our guys won, neener, neener, neener”. I sincerely doubt that the founders would have wished one party to go into every election with, say, an eighteen point handicap. And speaking of how the Electoral College was _supposed_ to function. Wasn’t it also supposed to serve as a last line of defense against manifestly unqualified candidates obtaining the presidency. How’d that work out? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/128 "2017-07-20T06:20:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I have heard all the explanations as for why Hillary is so hated, and I am still confounded. The Left voted for Hillary in the General because the alternatives consisted of a nightmare, way back there, a buffoon. But _no one_ on the Left was happy with her. She looked like a move to the right relative to the reaganesque Obama. Thus, there was probably a large contingent who held their noses to vote for her. Why would those people have a better opinion of her now? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/129 "2017-07-20T08:06:29Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > The Left voted for Hillary in the General because the alternatives consisted of a nightmare, way back there, a buffoon. But _no one_ on the Left was happy with her. She looked like a move to the right relative to the reaganesque Obama. Thus, there was probably a large contingent who held their noses to vote for her. Why would those people have a better opinion of her now? So both the left _and_ the right are incredibly stupid. Great. As said: nuke it from orbit. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/130 "2017-07-20T08:07:59Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Thanks for providing examples of what kind of brain-dead fuckwit finds them remotely comparable. One who steps in shit, cares not if it is the shit of a saint or a sinner. He has shit on his shoe just the same-Mark Twain or Einstein or Willy Wonka. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/131 "2017-07-20T08:58:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Exactly. > > She a living reminder for Democrats of their defeat - it’s natural that they can’t even bear to think about her. Regarding her loss, I’m disappointed, but not crazy. And you would have to be crazy to prefer Trump to her. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/132 "2017-07-20T09:50:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Thanks. We all understand that the law would have to be changed. That’s not the question. > > Here’s the question. Do you, Bricker, personally think the law should be changed so that the candidate who gets the most votes wins the election? How is this relevant? This kind of question comes up over and over. Why is my personal opinion even remotely an issue? The answer is yes: I think a better system would be a nationwide vote total. Now, what has changed, now that you know this? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/133 "2017-07-20T10:04:11Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > So both the left _and_ the right are incredibly stupid. Basically, yes, I think that’s fair to say. As someone who considers himself a progressive, I am increasingly disturbed by the radicalization of the left. I understand they’re pissed off at the long-ago radicalized right, but they’re not helping. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/134 "2017-07-20T11:34:23Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Oh so it’s now about how Hillary was unable to bullshit and con the public into voting for her. We’re moving the goalposts from “Hillary was a neoliberal whore who had terrible policies” to “Bro, you know what? She should have been better at gaslighting the public”. So the problem then isn’t that Hillary was a dissembler, but rather that she wasn’t a cult of personality leader who could make people question the notion of truth. That’s the political equivalent of blaming the rape victim for being raped: she just wasn’t strong enough to resist male power. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: > > I’ve got nothing against Joe Biden, but he’s relevant to the extent that most people agree that he would have been the “better” candidate than Hillary Clinton. But when you ask why, nobody can really give a good answer other than he’s just a more “charismatic” person. He’s more “likeable”. He’s more comfortable in his own skin. Well of course he is because Hillary Clinton, like Barack Obama, knows that if he does even a fraction of the shit that a white male does, it’s over. A white male can have affairs. A white male can be aggressive and use profanity in front of the cameras. A white male can be apparently really, really “unpresidential” and in fact behave in ways that would have been unimaginable even a few years ago. But the moment a black man or a white woman dares to push those boundaries…it’s over. Everyone knows it. Conservatives tried to make Barack Obama into a jive-ass black man from the ghetto, and fortunately they failed. But they were successful in taking Hillary Clinton and making her into a cunning, gold-digging witch, which practically every divorced male in America, regardless of race, can identify as a bogeywoman. And now you’ve run out of arguments. Go start a thread about sexism affects American politics, business, and culture if you like, but in this thread you’ve lost. You’re moving the goalposts. Hillary ran a terrible campaign, if Joe Biden or any man did the same thing Donald Trump would still be president, and probably by a wider margin. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/135 "2017-07-20T11:57:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How is this relevant? > > This kind of question comes up over and over. Why is my personal opinion even remotely an issue? > > The answer is yes: I think a better system would be a nationwide vote total. > > Now, what has changed, now that you know this? Do you really not get that a lot of posters are curious about your personal opinion? Why is that so strange to you? When I’m discussing something with someone, it’s important for me to understand their point of view, which includes understanding their personal opinions on the matter. And I expect others to want to know my personal opinion too. That’s a big part of an exchange of ideas. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/136 "2017-07-20T12:07:15Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > And now you’ve run out of arguments. Go start a thread about sexism affects American politics, business, and culture if you like, but in this thread you’ve lost. You’re moving the goalposts. Hillary ran a terrible campaign, if Joe Biden or any man did the same thing Donald Trump would still be president, and probably by a wider margin. I didn’t move any goalposts. I pointed out that Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden have basically the same neoliberal voting record but that Hillary Clinton gets blasted by fellow left-leaning and moderate independent voters while simultaneously talking in the same breath about how nice it would have been if Joe Biden had run instead of Hillary. I get your point that policies and perceptions of personality are two different aspects of the same discussion, but when one person is perceived as witch while the other is “charismatic” despite having basically identical voting records, there is an obvious discrepancy that requires an explanation. People are attributing the difference in popularity to things like Biden’s “affability” and “charisma” and being a “blue collar guy” you can “have a beer with”. What is ignored is that a lot of these same people, for reasons that they can’t explain, don’t apply these descriptions to female politicians. Not Hillary Clinton. Not even Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris. Look, are there female politicians out there who don’t have Hillary Clinton’s baggage? Yeah I’m sure there are – but that doesn’t really address the fact that Hillary Clinton, in her time, in her career as a moderate progressive politician, has been subjected to a decades-long brutal campaign of character assassination by a political culture that is still largely comprised of and dominated by white males. It’s going to take a special kind of female candidate going forward to somehow escape the gravity of this toxic culture. On that note, the possible irony here is that Donald Trump has potentially lowered the bar for any and all politicians going forward that perhaps a trash talking female firebrand could come out and change the landscape. I don’t think it’ll be an Elizabeth Warren that gets the job done. More like a Jenny McCarthy type who has sex appeal and can somehow balance that by having intelligent, mainstream ideas. But even so, you can look at that and realize that for a woman to be popular she’s going to have to give men a little bit off what they desire, which is sex or at least the fantasy of it. Hillary Clinton’s problem is that she was smart, ambitious, and not a barbie doll. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/137 "2017-07-20T12:39:39Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I didn’t move any goalposts. I pointed out that Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden have basically the same neoliberal voting record but that Hillary Clinton gets blasted by fellow left-leaning and moderate independent voters while simultaneously talking in the same breath about how nice it would have been if Joe Biden had run instead of Hillary. I get your point that policies and perceptions of personality are two different aspects of the same discussion, but when one person is perceived as witch while the other is “charismatic” despite having basically identical voting records, there is an obvious discrepancy that requires an explanation. People are attributing the difference in popularity to things like Biden’s “affability” and “charisma” and being a “blue collar guy” you can “have a beer with”. What is ignored is that a lot of these same people, for reasons that they can’t explain, don’t apply these descriptions to female politicians. Not Hillary Clinton. Not even Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris. Again, voting records have little to nothing to do with the perception of personality. Those descriptions don’t apply to the women you mention, they do not resemble Joe Biden in personality. There is plenty of sexism in this world, I am not going to argue that point, Hillary Clinton has faced plenty of sexism, no argument there, but this hypothetical poll comparing a woman who lost an election to a man who didn’t run doesn’t demonstrate sexism. Mainly what it demonstrates is that voters are idiots who love a candidate until they lose and then are willing to throw their support to someone who for all practical purposes doesn’t exist. And sometimes women lose elections because they aren’t good enough candidates for reasons having nothing to do with sexism. That doesn’t mean sexism doesn’t exist, it just means sexism isn’t the only reason that a woman can fail. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/138 "2017-07-20T13:12:14Z")
This might smack of mansplaining, and for that I apologize, but one thing that always bugged me about Clinton is the fact that she \*waited \*- waited for her husband to retire before she started her own political career. How could be the entire country’s first choice for President if she wasn’t even the first choice for President in her own house? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/139 "2017-07-20T13:29:00Z")
If she’d been running for office while Bill was in the White House, she’d be harangued for failing to support her spouse like a Good American Woman. Bear in mind that attitudes toward the role of women have changed drastically even in the last thirty years. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/140 "2017-07-20T13:50:39Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I noticed you didn’t really address the question. I didn’t figure you would. I did address it, but apparently you were too dumb to understand. So in really simple terms: If some people post a thing in one thread, and other people post a thing in another thread, it’s because they’re different people, not because they’re sexist. And there’s nothing to reconcile when different people say different things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632.md?page=8)