# Donald Trump more popular than Hillary Clinton **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 19, 2017, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632 "2017-07-19T09:31:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/141 "2017-07-20T13:58:23Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I did address it, but apparently you were too dumb to understand. So in really simple terms: If some people post a thing in one thread, and other people post a thing in another thread, it’s because they’re different people, not because they’re sexist. And there’s nothing to reconcile when different people say different things. Uh, okay.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/142 "2017-07-20T14:09:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If she’d been running for office while Bill was in the White House, she’d be harangued for failing to support her spouse like a Good American Woman. Bear in mind that attitudes toward the role of women have changed drastically even in the last thirty years. Why didn’t _she_ run, while he stayed at home and supported her? Why did she wait her turn like a good little wife? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/143 "2017-07-20T14:13:06Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Again, voting records have little to nothing to do with the perception of personality. Those descriptions don’t apply to the women you mention, they do not resemble Joe Biden in personality. There is plenty of sexism in this world, I am not going to argue that point, Hillary Clinton has faced plenty of sexism, no argument there, but this hypothetical poll comparing a woman who lost an election to a man who didn’t run doesn’t demonstrate sexism. Mainly what it demonstrates is that voters are idiots who love a candidate until they lose and then are willing to throw their support to someone who for all practical purposes doesn’t exist. And sometimes women lose elections because they aren’t good enough candidates for reasons having nothing to do with sexism. That doesn’t mean sexism doesn’t exist, it just means sexism isn’t the only reason that a woman can fail. I guess we’re not really disagreeing too, too much, then. Perhaps just debating the degree to which sexism played a part. I probably believe it was a bigger factor than others do, but I can’t really prove it beyond what evidence I’ve already provided. In any case, my point was not that sexism is the _only_ reason why Hillary lost the race in 2016, and I would never say that Hillary wasn’t at times her own worst enemy. She made bad voting decisions and bad decisions as Sec of State. I think the Democratic party would have been wiser to have cultivated a broader field of candidates. Not disagreeing with any of that and have said as much in other threads. But Hillary’s political reputation has been bludgeoned by chauvinistic conspiracy theorists who saw her candidacy for president coming miles away and resolved to do whatever they could to make sure that she never set foot in the White House. It started out as mostly a right wing cabal of people who hated her for being a modern woman, for being pro-choice, for trying to lead efforts to reform a corrupt healthcare system. The attacks started out from the fringes of the right, but was then flanked from fringes on the left as well. People who believe that Joe Biden was a better champion for the people than Hillary yet can’t explain the difference between his vote for Glass Steagal repeal, his vote for the Patriot Act, and his vote for the Iraq War – and hers. They can’t explain why it’s okay for Hillary Clinton’s opponents like Barack Obama, John Edwards, and Joe Biden to be awash in millions in campaign cash but suddenly she’s a Wall Street sellout when she actually beats many of them at their own game. And then the Bernie Bros can’t explain why it’s so racist and awful for Hillary Clinton to have supported her husband’s mass incarceration in 1994, when it fact it was none other than Senator Bernie Sanders who helped to vote it into law. That’s not to say that there aren’t differences between the candidates – there are, and I’d acknowledge that in terms of message, say what one will, Bernie Sanders did set himself apart in the 2016 campaign. I’m not so much pro-Hillary as I am pro-truth and pro-fairness. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/144 "2017-07-20T14:41:32Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I get your point that policies and perceptions of personality are two different aspects of the same discussion, but when one person is perceived as witch while the other is “charismatic” despite having basically identical voting records, there is an obvious discrepancy that requires an explanation. People are attributing the difference in popularity to things like Biden’s “affability” and “charisma” and being a “blue collar guy” you can “have a beer with”. What is ignored is that a lot of these same people, for reasons that they can’t explain, don’t apply these descriptions to female politicians. Not Hillary Clinton. Not even Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris. Maybe you don’t know what charismatic means and that’s why you’re so confused? The fact that someone would seriously think that charisma has something to do with voting records is just baffling. Charisma is about showing confidence, exuberance, optimism, a ready smile, expressive body language, and a friendly, passionate voice - and other that confidence Hillary Clinton absolutely doesn’t present those qualities. Here’s a person with enough charisma to become president on a show:[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnW3xkHxIEQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnW3xkHxIEQ) Here’s the person who couldn’t beat Donald Fucking Trump on the same show: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrkPe-9rM1Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrkPe-9rM1Q) But yeah, clearly if anyone thinks she lacks charisma it’s solely due to vagina possession and not due to, you know, her showing the likability and public speaking ability of a piece of cardboard with a face drawn on it. > [@](#): > > but that doesn’t really address the fact that Hillary Clinton, in her time, in her career as a moderate progressive politician, Hillary Clinton is not a progressive politician, moderate or not. She is generally right-wing outside of health care, an extreme hawk on military matters, and doesn’t support progressive social causes until they’re safely centrist causes - gay marriage being the prime example. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/145 "2017-07-20T14:44:16Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > you would have to be crazy to prefer Trump to her. At least hit upside the head too many times, anyway. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/146 "2017-07-20T14:47:34Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > She is generally right-wing outside of health care, an extreme hawk on military matters, and doesn’t support progressive social causes until they’re safely centrist causes - gay marriage being the prime example. In fairness, she didn’t seem to know ‘what borders are’ or ‘why we have borders’. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/147 "2017-07-20T15:04:46Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Maybe you don’t know what charismatic means and that’s why you’re so confused? The fact that someone would seriously think that charisma has something to do with voting records is just baffling. Charisma is about showing confidence, exuberance, optimism, a ready smile, expressive body language, and a friendly, passionate voice - and other that confidence Hillary Clinton absolutely doesn’t present those qualities. > > Here’s a person with enough charisma to become president on a show:[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnW3xkHxIEQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnW3xkHxIEQ) > > Here’s the person who couldn’t beat Donald Fucking Trump on the same show: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrkPe-9rM1Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrkPe-9rM1Q) > > But yeah, clearly if anyone thinks she lacks charisma it’s solely due to vagina possession and not due to, you know, her showing the likability and public speaking ability of a piece of cardboard with a face drawn on it. > > Hillary Clinton is not a progressive politician, moderate or not. She is generally right-wing outside of health care, an extreme hawk on military matters, and doesn’t support progressive social causes until they’re safely centrist causes - gay marriage being the prime example. You’re off yer chain, mate. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/148 "2017-07-20T15:09:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Why didn’t _she_ run, while he stayed at home and supported her? Why did she wait her turn like a good little wife? Hell if I know. Bill won his first elective office in 1976, the year after they married. She may not have had any political ambitions by that point. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/149 "2017-07-20T15:18:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you really not get that a lot of posters are curious about your personal opinion? Why is that so strange to you? When I’m discussing something with someone, it’s important for me to understand their point of view, which includes understanding their personal opinions on the matter. And I expect others to want to know my personal opinion too. That’s a big part of an exchange of ideas. Just for the record, I’ve never been the least bit interested in knowing your point of view on anything. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/150 "2017-07-20T15:24:21Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hell if I know. Bill won his first elective office in 1976, the year after they married. She may not have had any political ambitions by that point. Nah, she’s likely always had political ambitions. She waited until she thought it was ‘safe’ to run. Like any good competitor, she waited until she felt like the odds were most likely to be in her favor. She wasn’t going to win political office in Deep South Arkansas in the 1970s having arrived as an assertive female northern transplant. After her husband won two terms as president and after she thought she had established herself as a credible political candidate, she ran, and she won in New York. And in late 2007 all indications were, she was a good bet to return to the White House in January of 2009. But higher office means higher scrutiny and the dynamics had also changed in ways she wasn’t yet aware of – ditto 2016 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/151 "2017-07-20T15:32:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > This might smack of mansplaining, and for that I apologize, but one thing that always bugged me about Clinton is the fact that she \*waited \*- waited for her husband to retire before she started her own political career. How could be the entire country’s first choice for President if she wasn’t even the first choice for President in her own house? The original deal was that Bill would get elected President, because he has/had the charisma, and she was the policy wonk who would fix healthcare. (Some Congressman who I think was named Wofford or similar won a special election running mostly on healthcare, so the Clintons figured that was a winning issue). Then Bill won the White House and the Dems controlled Congress, both houses. And Hillary was going to be co-President In Charge of Healthcare. Unfortunately, Bill’s apparent inability to tell the truth on a dare, and the discovery that the kind of petty graft that was taken for granted as a perk of office in Arkansas was not going to be overlooked in DC, led to the GOP takeover of Congress. And Hillary found out that the “I can’t be expected to save every under-capitalized entrepreneur in America” so shut up and accept the plans of your betters did not play in Peoria. Then Bill’s zipper problems erupted (so to speak). Bill and Hillary had the sort of agreement that some political couples have - cat around if you must, but keep it on the down low and don’t get caught. And Bill got caught. Hillary was majorly pissed, and she and Bill came to a new arrangement. Hillary would do the Tammy Wynette bit and stand by her man, fade into the background and let Bill schmooze his way out. But by golly after he left the White House, it was her turn. So our long national nightmare was over in 2001. First order of business - make a lot of money, because they had to spend so much on lawyers and paying off the women Bill had attempted to schtup. So Bill went on the speaking tour and they made a hundred million or so lecturing the Nigerians (only a hundred million - not real money). Then Hillary ran for a nice safe Democratic seat - she’s a big Yankees fan, after all, served in the Senate, and then decided it was time for POTUS. Unfortunately the Dems and the country found Obama’s black privilege points outweighed Hillary’s feminist points, and she lost to a newbie. OK, time to regroup. Eventually she got Obama to appoint her SoS to get foreign policy chops. So along comes 2016, and at last she is sure that this time, she is going to be everybody’s first choice for President. Only not so much, and not where it counted. Or maybe thinking she’s got the charisma of a used Kleenex is sexism. Who can tell. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/152 "2017-07-20T15:32:36Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I will believe it when I see it. Actually, the closest thing I’ve seen to a female political phenom in this country is…Sarah Palin. It’s not surprising because she is a conservative free spirit who said a bunch of outrageous things that fired up her conservative base. Palin had a lot of soulmates. > > I’m really talking about people who identify themselves as “progressives” here, or people with “progressive” leanings. There is no way that they would support someone like Sarah Palin for obvious reasons, but to be honest, I wonder how much they’d support Elizabeth Warren. And even if they did, it wouldn’t matter because Warren has no chance to go beyond her Massachusetts base. What I’m saying is, progressives have been talking about someone like Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders running, but I don’t see them really rallying around female democratic figures. Free spirit? No, she is a fucking moron who should have never had a shot at ANY office. Her “soulmates” are fucking morons too. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/153 "2017-07-20T15:34:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > …and the discovery that the kind of petty graft that was taken for granted as a perk of office in Arkansas was not going to be overlooked in DC, led to the GOP takeover of Congress. Please remind me of Bill Clinton’s “petty graft.” ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/154 "2017-07-20T15:40:46Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Basically, yes, I think that’s fair to say. As someone who considers himself a progressive, I am increasingly disturbed by the radicalization of the left. I understand they’re pissed off at the long-ago radicalized right, but they’re not helping. Not helping what, exactly? Maybe finally getting pissed off is the right thing for a change? We already saw how far “concensus building” got (the Party Of No killed that right off). We’re tired of traitors calling US the traitors. We’re tired of philanderers and fake preachers and multiply divorced criminals telling us what the “word of God” is. We’re tired of the whole shit sandwich. So fuck helping, it’s time to get ignorant and start fighting back. Fuck the radicalized right. They like to wave their guns, talk about second amendment solutions to everything, making vague threats about civil war. We’ve got the Proud Boys, the alt-right, all the other loonies, and WE are supposed to make nice? Aw fuck that. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/155 "2017-07-20T16:07:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > This might smack of mansplaining, and for that I apologize, but one thing that always bugged me about Clinton is the fact that she \*waited \*- waited for her husband to retire before she started her own political career. How could be the entire country’s first choice for President if she wasn’t even the first choice for President in her own house? This perhaps is the most bizarre thing I’ve seen Clinton faulted for. Not only are you presuming that there was a household competition between them for president and that she lost, you’re saying this silly “loss” makes her a questionable candidate… decades after it happened. How about she simply decided to support her husband’s political ambitions and be there for her daughter, putting a temporary hold on her own aspirations so that Bill could succeed first? I hope you don’t think this is a _bad_ thing, because good god, that would just confirm the idea Hillary just can’t win with some of yall. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/156 "2017-07-20T16:09:48Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This perhaps is the most bizarre thing I’ve seen Clinton faulted for. Not only are you presuming that there was a household competition between them for president and that she lost, you’re saying this silly “loss” makes her a questionable candidate… decades after it happened. > > How about she simply decided to support her husband’s political ambitions and be there for her daughter, putting a temporary hold on her own aspirations so that Bill could succeed first? I hope you don’t think this is a _bad_ thing, because good god, that would just confirm the idea Hillary just can’t win with some of yall. When it’s a Clinton, especially Hillary, everything is a bad thing, no matter which way you go. There IS no right thing. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/157 "2017-07-20T16:20:43Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Why didn’t _she_ run, while he stayed at home and supported her? Why did she wait her turn like a good little wife? Perhaps because Bill, like many men, would’ve treated that idea as emasculating nonsense? I mean, are you being serious with this question? SAHDs were a pretty alien concept in the 80’s and 90’s, particular among men with law degrees and presidential aspirations. You know what was also a pretty alien concept? Presidents without Y-chromosomes and pale skin. Are you really faulting HRC for being a “good little wife” for delaying her entry into political office so that she put full support behind her husband? Because if so, you’re crapping on a bunch of women who have been pressured to do the same thing for their husbands. I guess all of them are opportunistic, coat-tail riding poseurs too, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/158 "2017-07-20T16:38:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Perhaps because Bill, like many men, would’ve treated that idea as emasculating nonsense? I don’t know if Bill would’ve - Hillary used to go by her maiden name and was known as Hillary Rodham, but the voters of Arkansas didn’t like it. > [@Alessan](#): > > Why didn’t she run, while he stayed at home and supported her? Because Bill was the charmer and she was the policy wonk. They had the best chance of doing what they wanted to do under that arrangement. The “Bill becomes POTUS” part worked; the “Hillary puts her brilliant ideas into law and fixes all the problems with healthcare” less so. The new arrangement where “Hillary becomes POTUS and puts her brilliant ideas into law” even less. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/159 "2017-07-20T16:52:13Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > So both the left _and_ the right are incredibly stupid. I am not sure why you say that. Both the Left and the Right voted for her in very large numbers. Asshole was “elected” by a fucked-up bloc of μολον-λαβeist types, apolitical morons, nihilists and dizzy revolutionaries. The fact that a large number of Hillary voters were not literally Hillary supporters does not alter the fact that they did vote for her, or at least against Trainwreck. How is it stupid to be disappointed by one’s disappointment? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632/160 "2017-07-20T16:53:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t know if Bill would’ve - That’s cute, but it’s a safe bet that he wouldn’t have. All indications suggest Bill Clinton craved the limelight too much to stand in anyone’s shadow, left alone his wife’s. Like most high-achieving men have historically done. Her using her maiden name doesn’t negate that. Do you think HRC coerced him to run for president or something? Because otherwise I don’t know where the doubt comes from. I assume they both came to decision that he’d pursue national political office and she’d do what was necessary to help him accomplish that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-more-popular-than-hillary-clinton/791632.md?page=9)