# Donald Trump, tax avoider **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 27, 2020, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696 "2020-09-27T21:49:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/161 "2020-09-28T23:07:43Z")
I read he owes hundreds of millions to the Russians. I have not been able to verify that, but 😰 _The Times reported that Trump is personally responsible for loans and other debts of $421 million, much of which comes due in the next four years. I_ and this: > **[A guide to Donald Trump's huge debts—and the conflicts they present](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/12/guide-donald-trump-debt/)** > > Here's what we know he owes. ## \*_Deutsche Bank: $364 million_ _The troubled German bank is Trump’s top lender and has been for years._ \*## **Ladder Capital: $282 million** _Ladder Capital is not a traditional bank or a big name on Wall Street, but in the last several years it has joined Deutsche Bank as a main source of financing for Trump. In fact, since 2012, these two outfits have been the only ones to lend Trump money. One big issue with Trump’s loans from Ladder Capital is that he appears to be personally liable for at least $26 million of the debt._ and this: [https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/302216-how-much-money-does-the-trump-organization-owe](https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/302216-how-much-money-does-the-trump-organization-owe) _It is a conclusion that even Trump’s eldest son, Donald Trump Jr., has appeared to confirm, saying in 2008—after the Trump Organization was prospering again—that “Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets.”_ ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/162 "2020-09-28T23:08:53Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > one thing that maybe could hurt him with religious folks is if he paid for an abortion. If he did he was probably smart enough to pay with cash leaving no paper trail. It would be his word vs. the woman’s word. Or just have one of his lackeys pay for it, preferably a woman. You know there’s not going to be a traceable connection. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/163 "2020-09-28T23:13:56Z")
Yes, trump is now still under audit by the IRS, under his very own claim. And the IRS does not publicize a Civil fraud penalty, so we wouldnt know about that anyway. So, at the very least- according to trump himself- his tax returns are so fishy as to be under audit for several years. Indicting a sitting president for criminal tax fraud is something not done likely, and we likely wouldnt hear about it under trump left office. And i will tell you now that if a indictment is threatened, the IRS is almost always willing to settle for a signed admission of Civil fraud and a agreement of the amount due. So we may never hear of it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/164 "2020-09-28T23:18:41Z")
There is a lot of stuff to write off for book sales, but a _smart man_ running for office would cut out most of the grey area stuff. That’s one difference between Obama and trump. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/165 "2020-09-28T23:20:19Z")
Doesnt have to be the iRS. Accountants, lawyers, and dozens of debtors have had copies. ---
**Author:** ![Jungian\_Camisole1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jungian_camisole1/32/3646_2.png) [@Jungian\_Camisole1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jungian_Camisole1)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/166 "2020-09-28T23:25:03Z")
It is not a surprise at all to learn that Trump paid more to shut up his prostitutes than he paid in US taxes. Heh. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/167 "2020-09-28T23:34:32Z")
> [@SwissMan](#): > > A thought that has just occurred to me: given these disclosures and the various income streams that Barack and Michelle Obama have received since leaving office, wouldn’t it be a lark if Obama now had a higher net worth than Trump? Of course Obama has a higher net worth than Trump. I have a higher net worth than Trump. A nomadic llama herdsman in an uncontacted region of South America has a higher net worth than Trump. I strongly suspect that every single human being on the planet, living or dead, in all of history has a higher net worth than Trump. Getting a net worth as low as negative half a billion dollars is a singularly impressive achievement. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/168 "2020-09-28T23:41:46Z")
Great Question! I wondered too > **[Council Post: Why Depreciation Is The Biggest Perk Of Real Estate Investing](https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesrealestatecouncil/2018/03/09/why-depreciation-is-the-biggest-perk-of-real-estate-investing/)** > > There's one characteristic of real estate that makes it an asset worth considering over all others. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/169 "2020-09-28T23:53:53Z")
I wonder where you get this idea? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/170 "2020-09-28T23:55:23Z")
Damn, dude. Now I have to clean my screen. 😆 _A nomadic llama herdsman in an uncontacted region of South America has a higher net worth than Trump._ Comedy gold. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/171 "2020-09-28T23:57:51Z")
In fact, Trump is a multibillionaire, worth $2.5 billion, by our count. His portfolio, which includes commercial buildings, golf properties and branding businesses, is worth an estimated $3.66 billion before debt. The president has a fair amount of leverage—adding up to a roughly $1.13 billion—but not enough to drag his net worth below a billion dollars. ETA from Forbes ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/172 "2020-09-29T00:07:28Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > He “hired” his daughter as a consultant for the Trump Organization, [paying her a fee of $747,622](https://www.politicususa.com/2020/09/27/ivanka-trump-tax-fraud.html). Now, that alone is interesting. This shouldn’t get lost in all of the noise. _The Times_ was able to track down the payment to Ivanka because it exactly matched the write-off on Daddy’s returns. Trump [wrote off another $25 million](https://us.cnn.com/2020/09/28/politics/ivanka-trump-donald-trump-tacves/index.html) in consulting fees between 2010 and 2018. When that’s fully investigated, will anyone be surprised if Don jr. and Eric were double-dipping as well? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/173 "2020-09-29T00:17:04Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > This is something else Biden should hammer on. It’s not the tax evasion, or tax minimization, the narrative there is that he’s just being “smart”, nobody pays more taxes than they are legally obliged to. What matters is: > > (1) He’s a _terrible_ businessman who has persistently lost money, contrary to the narrative that he’s a financial genius and great negotiator. > > (2) He has huge personal loans coming due, which leave him extremely vulnerable to inappropriate influence, and represent an obvious conflict of interest in his handling of economic policy. > > (3) His handling of COVID and 200,000 American deaths should be seen not just as incompetence, but also in the context of this massive conflict of interest: **his own casino and hotel businesses woulds suffer dramatically if he informed the American people of the known risk, if he implemented and enforced appropriate measures to stop the spread of the virus.** Though that third point was criticized on the basis that Trump is out of the casino business, it still holds true because he is very much still in the hotel/golf-resort business. And therefore he has a personal incentive to lie about the pandemic’s severity. Aside from that: I agree with those who’ve said that Biden should hit Trump hard on the “FAILURE AS A BUSINESSMAN” front. Sure, Trump owns some real estate— but it’s questionable whether the sale of _all_ of it would be enough to cover his personal debts. And meanwhile, those debts make him a major national-security risk. So, hit him on being #LoserTrump and #FailureTrump. The facts support it. But it’s also true that the ‘paid no taxes or very little in taxes’ facts _can_ reach some voters. As has been noted in this thread, Trump for years has joined with other Republicans in decrying “freeloading” poor people and immigrants who pay little or nothing in Federal income taxes. So, who’s the biggest Freeloader of all? That’s right, Donald “Moocher” Trump. Hit that hard, too. There’s no reason not to have two campaign themes based on these tax returns—which, as previously noted, Trump hasn’t called fake. They are real, and he is simultaneously a Business Failure, and a Moocher / Freeloader / Parasite. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/174 "2020-09-29T00:28:39Z")
He owes money to SOMEONE - that we know. And considering banks and lenders in the United States would have to be out of their fucking minds to lend him anything more than beer money (knowing they won’t see that again), we can be sure that the money isn’t coming from someone here. Really, _that_ is _the_ issue. His tax avoidance is a distraction (although it might not be once the IRS gets involved in a year or two). The real issue is, **where is he getting his cash from**? **_Who_ is he getting cash from**? Look, tax returns by themselves don’t show us all of Trump’s finances - we know that, so people can stop using that canard to defend him. What tax returns do is **prompt people with a mind that is switched on to start asking some questions.** The president of the United States is beholden to foreign interests. That is the issue. How many of our national secrets has he been blackmailed into giving away? Does Russia know our nuclear codes? Our launch sequence? Do they know where our spies are? Who they are? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/175 "2020-09-29T00:36:04Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > May I request that the mods change the thread title to “Donald Trump, Tax Avoider?” Although Trump is indeed scummy in many ways, there is a huge difference between tax evasion (illegal) and tax avoidance (legal), and the title conflates the two. I dont say evasion, I say avoision. ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/176 "2020-09-29T00:41:50Z")
Russians and Germans. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/177 "2020-09-29T00:44:12Z")
Have you tried? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/178 "2020-09-29T00:50:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Of course Obama has a higher net worth than Trump. I have a higher net worth than Trump. A nomadic llama herdsman in an uncontacted region of South America has a higher net worth than Trump. I strongly suspect that every single human being on the planet, living or dead, in all of history has a higher net worth than Trump. Getting a net worth as low as negative half a billion dollars is a singularly impressive achievement. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Damn, dude. Now I have to clean my screen. 😆 > _A nomadic llama herdsman in an uncontacted region of South America has a higher net worth than Trump._ Comedy gold. No kidding ! That was priceless! 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![MrMrmrmr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrmrmrmr/32/5828_2.png) [@MrMrmrmr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMrmrmr)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/179 "2020-09-29T01:02:41Z")
Would you drop into the imho thread about net worth and tell us about your financial acumen. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696/180 "2020-09-29T01:11:09Z")
Seen online: “I think it is very progressive of the United States to make its poorest citizen president.” I was dying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-tax-avoider/921696.md?page=10)