# Donald Trump: The First White President \[article in The Atlantic by Ta-Nehisi Coates\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2017, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725 "2017-09-07T13:01:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/561 "2017-09-22T20:48:42Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Are we talking about reparations now? Since it’s such a recurring theme of Coates’ writing, it’s tough to not get into it when discussing the overall topic of white supremacism and racism in America, but it’s still probably beyond the scope of the OP. Sorry if I’m hijacking my own thread! ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/562 "2017-09-22T22:18:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This appears to be an argument that countries can’t be held responsible for any past events. Do you really believe this? Did Germany bear no responsibility at all for the Holocaust? Not sure if you’re intentionally alluding to this or not, but (West) Germany did [pay reparations for the Holocaust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany). ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/563 "2017-09-22T22:58:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, I’ll try again. > > This appears to be an argument that countries can’t be held responsible for any past events. Do you really believe this? Did Germany bear no responsibility at all for the Holocaust? > > If this isn’t your argument, then under what conditions can a country be held responsible for something? > > Except it wasn’t a disease. It was plunder – transfer of the wealth of labor (slavery) and property (one example: outright theft for decades after slavery – black landowners had their land stolen by white neighbors because courts always sided with the white litigants). That was wealth moving from black families to white families. The plunder also extended to discriminatory policies like redlining – black families and potential home buyers paid taxes, yet only white families received the benefits of government backed loans to buy new houses, the foundation of long-term wealth for most families. That was more wealth transfer – black taxes being transferred to white families by way of biased government policies on housing assistance. > > Those are just a few of many, many examples. Government policies reduced and held back the wealth of black families to the benefit of other (largely white) families, including those families of living Americans. It seems reasonable to consider making reparations for these policies that directly harmed black Americans to the benefit of other Americans. Don’t you understand? “Slavery is a disease not a behavioral issue.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/564 "2017-09-23T00:36:29Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > Not sure if you’re intentionally alluding to this or not, but (West) Germany did [pay reparations for the Holocaust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany). Yes, that was intentional. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/565 "2017-09-23T03:20:44Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If you acquire stock in a company you buy into all of it’s existing liabilities. If you don’t want them, then you don’t buy the stock. None of us chose our parents or to be born in any country. The idea that children are not responsible for the actions of their parents is uncontroversial. If this were a thread about the Dreamers, for example, we would see many posts about how they didn’t do anything wrong and shouldn’t suffer for something they have no control over. It’s only the sin of slavery/racism that is seriously mooted as something this country should be responsible for. Couldn’t this argument be used to deny responsibility for literally every sin of the government? Not just past sins – which I see on preview to be already mentioned – but even current sins? Just as we’re not responsible for the sins of our parents, we’re also not responsible for the sins of complete strangers. This can include government agents such as police officers. Sheriff Arpaio was apparently responsible for tens of millions of dollars of costs that were the result of the many lawsuits filed against his various civil rights transgressions. Taxpayers must ultimately foot such a bill, and not just the people who voted for him. Even the people who campaigned vigorously against his re-election are still stuck with the government’s bill. And not to forget, even children who had never had a chance to vote against him, but came of age afterward and got jobs – and therefore became regular adult taxpayers – have to help pay the bills racked up by these lawsuits. This is not ideal. It’s not the best of all possible worlds. But I think the underlying principle here is fairly clear. We need some way for people who were wronged by the government to receive restitution for those wrongs, when the transgressions are finally and fairly acknowledged. This isn’t unusual even for quite terrible wrongs: the German example has already been mentioned. The intended point of this is not to punish children who were too young to vote at the time the crime happened. The intended point of this is not to make any individual suffer. The point is simply that the government is a human institution, and therefore fallible – but the fallibility of the institution is not carte blanche to ignore the responsibilities it has to the people it has previously wronged. It’s not ideal, but it’s also the regular way of the world, that citizens are stuck with the sins of a government they didn’t choose. I don’t want my own tax dollars paying for starting an unnecessary war overseas but I don’t have a lot of leeway in that matter. If people aren’t interested in this digression, then I can leave this here. My own original point was that I don’t understand any argument that says “I wasn’t responsible, therefore I shouldn’t pay.” I don’t get that. This is not a principle that holds generally with respect to literally anything else the government does. But I’ve said my piece on it and I can stop arguing it. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/566 "2017-09-23T10:50:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The article is here: > > [Donald Trump Is the First White President - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/the-first-white-president-ta-nehisi-coates/537909/) > > Wow. I’m still processing it, but what an incredible article. The premise (as I understand it) is that Trump’s racism – above and beyond any recent presidential candidate – was the key to his success, and it was largely due to a backlash against having a black president. I think he makes a good case. > > The article utilizes the concept of “whiteness” very frequently. In my experience, this is a frequently misunderstood concept. It’s not the biological fact of ancestry or skin color. It’s a sociological phenomenon that was manufactured sometime around the 17th-18th centuries, largely in the US (but also elsewhere), in order to pit lower classes against each other such that the wealthy and powerful can remain wealthy and powerful. Before “whiteness”, in America at least, lower class white people and black people actually got along reasonably well – there were certainly a lot of differences and conflicts, but they were orders of magnitude less than those in 19th century America and Jim Crow. And in my understanding of history, this is absolutely true – in 17th century colonial America ([or at least the first half](https://www.thoughtco.com/interracial-marriage-laws-721611)), interracial marriage was legal and, while uncommon, wasn’t as unheard of as it would have been in the 18th and 19th centuries. [In the 1640s and 1650s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Americans#Colonial_era), “several African families owned farms around Jamestown and some became wealthy by colonial standards and purchased indentured servants of their own.” In the 1690s, Virginia ordered that all free blacks be deported. There’s much more to read about this, in these links and elsewhere, but the thrust is that relations between whites and blacks in America were deliberately made worse by those in power, through laws and cultural practices, thus creating a sense of “whiteness” that didn’t exist before in that form. Obama vs McCain data: Obama won a stunning 54 percent of young white voters supported Obama, compared with 44 percent who went for McCain 96 percent of black voters supported. White college graduates, 35 percent of voters, broke for McCain 51 to 47 percent. It was African Americans and Latino who voted on race, not whites where were mostly split or 60-40. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/567 "2017-09-23T15:39:36Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Obama vs McCain data: > > Obama won a stunning 54 percent of young white voters supported Obama, compared with 44 percent who went for McCain > > 96 percent of black voters supported. > > White college graduates, 35 percent of voters, broke for McCain 51 to 47 percent. > > It was African Americans and Latino who voted on race, not whites where were mostly split or 60-40. I think this greatly misinterprets the statistics. Blacks have overwhelmingly supported white candidates – in fact, the vast majority of the presidential candidates that black voters have overwhelmingly supported were white. Black voters have, recently, voted overwhelmingly in support of the Democratic party, not in support of black candidates. Black voters have overwhelmingly opposed various black candidates in favor of white candidates in some statewide races. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/568 "2017-09-23T18:44:21Z")
Hey look, another weekend of white grievance politics. But Trump’s base really cares about economic issues, right?? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/569 "2017-09-24T18:35:16Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > This just sounds like libelous caricature on your part. Unless you have some plan for what African-Americans should be doing without any cooperation from whites of any kind, that would be “agency” by some deeply weird definition. So be it. Blacks had little cooperation from Whites during the decades before the CRA, VRA, and Great Society, yet they managed to create strong communities of increasing prosperity. So they indeed prospered through "agency’ by my deeply weird definition. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Blacks have been doing that since the 1880’s. Then white supremacists come and burn their economic centers down. The “help” Coates wants from “white liberals” is stopping that from happening. Coates is concerned with enforcement of property rights alone? If so I have been misreading him badly. I believe he calls for a fairly comprehensive suite of policies that would not have anything to do with enforcing Black-owned property rights. > [@](#): > > Seriously. It’s not about Marxism, it’s not about left-economics. Coates just wants his people to be compensated for past destruction of economic opportunity, and a system that will try to deter such abuses in the future. As a Marxist, Coates fails to make the correct distinctions between classes. I am a supporter of reparations from a strict property rights perspective, and there is much daylight between his program and mine. So, yes it has everything to do with his political and economic confusion. > [@](#): > > This is in fact why there’s so much bad blood between people like Coates and actual leftists. Coates prioritizes racial debt over class struggle, which suits the likes of Clinton and Obama just fine. The actual Marxists (not that you know what that is) prioritize class struggle and inequality. Leftists see Coates as muddying the water and attacking them while the “centrists” keep the (incidentally white) power structure intact. No, there is bad blood between Coates and “white” leftists because Coates does not pat them on the back, and they desperately want his approval. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > _ **And Coates would largely agree with you!** _ > > He \*comes \*from black nationalism; he was _raised_ in it. He was educated in a historically black university, and they poured much the same stuff in his head as what you just said. Pride, separation, self-sufficiency, self-segregation, blah blah blah. Yes Black pride and self-sufficiency is “blah blah blah”. It is unbelievable the things liberals think it is ok to say. This goes well with the earlier poster who claimed Black triumphs came in the form of White legislation. To the contrary, the things you claim are blah blah blah, helped the Black community, indeed the entire Diaspora, to survive the terrors of White governments. > [@](#): > > And yet you call _him_ a Marxist. Which he is not. Why is that? You attack him when he’s on your side of this argument! He is indeed a Marxist, but that’s not so much of an attack, but an explanation for when he is in error. > [@](#): > > Oh, wait, you don’t want the USA to pay damages for actual acts of violence and oppression, like the burning of Tulsa or the lynchings of Jim Crow. So anyone who thinks that that sort of thing should be corrected for is a “Marxist.” No the “USA” should not pay damages. The “USA” can only acquire funds to finance reparations through the initiation of further violence. Victims of violence should seek redress in court. Hopefully many of these wrongs can be addressed as they should, acknowledging the role of the individual in society, on a case by case basis. > [@](#): > > Remember, kids, “anti-Communism” in the USA is really another word for never having to say you’re sorry to a Negro. I believe those who commit acts of violence should do more than say sorry. Indeed they should do more than advocate for policies in which the concepts of aggressive violence and victimhood are manipulated in such a way as to render the terms unusable for communication. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If Coates is reading this thread he’s probably clapping his hands in excitement over your posts. Because you are literally providing hard evidence that a politically disenfranchised black community is not only of zero concern to mainstream America, but in fact is the preferred state. Ok, first Coates would agree with everything I say, now I am his White Boogieman. I never said Blacks should be politically disenfranchised. I said they accomplished much more in the way of prosperity and community-building in the decades before the CRA, VRA, and Great Society, than they have since. > [@](#): > > Without even blinking an eye, you’ve essentially argued that blacks need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and make jobs for themselves rather than clamor to be heard by politicians. And since this makes me evil, you must think the opposite: “Blacks should not pull themselves up by their bootstraps and should not make jobs for themselves and should clamor to be uplifted by Good Whitey.” > [@](#): > > Now ain’t that a wonder? If “liberal elites” were to preach the same message to working class whites, all hell would break loose. Because liberals want all of the poor to clamor to be uplifted by the government. They do not believe in individuals uplifting themselves. > [@](#): > > In fact, this message is supposedly just the thing that turns them turn into angry Trump voters. Why should we not expect this same response from snubbed black people? I understand why people are angry. My goal is to direct their anger to the appropriate targets. > [@](#): > > And why does the casual admonishment of blacks to stay politically invisible come so easy for you? Because I casually admonish all people to stay politically invisible. Democracy, in such a huge population, is not an appropriate mechanism for a minority. In a democracy, every individual is his/her own minority. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/570 "2017-09-24T18:39:15Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Hey look, another weekend of white grievance politics. > > But Trump’s base really cares about economic issues, right?? Yes Coates was spot-on about that. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/571 "2017-09-24T18:52:09Z")
If we are talking about reparations, there are thousands of living and recently-deceased victims of the US government that have a good claim for restitution. Quite a bit live in countries the US military has attacked and occupied. If the government courts were concerned with justice, they would conclude that the US military, from the top to the bottom, and its associated firms and contractors should pay reparations to those victims. The point is, the case for Black reparations is much murkier than other cases in recent times, so why do current progressives prioritize that case? Perhaps because it falls into the White Man’s Burden paradigm that progressives are still stuck in, lo these many decades. Or maybe because they continue to support many actions of the US Government that rack up innocent victims on a daily basis. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/572 "2017-09-24T18:56:32Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So be it. > > Blacks had little cooperation from Whites during the decades before the CRA, VRA, and Great Society, yet they managed to create strong communities of increasing prosperity. So they indeed prospered through "agency’ by my deeply weird definition. The VRA and CRA made black people’s lives far safer and far better. Those came through organizing and peaceful activism. So activism was also very effective in making the lives of black people better. > [@](#): > > As a Marxist, Coates fails to make the correct distinctions between classes. Cite that Coates is a Marxist? > [@](#): > > No the “USA” should not pay damages. The “USA” can only acquire funds to finance reparations through the initiation of further violence. Victims of violence should seek redress in court. Hopefully many of these wrongs can be addressed as they should, acknowledging the role of the individual in society, on a case by case basis. Very, very few Americans believe that taxes are “violence”, so this argument will strike many or most as pretty ridiculous. > [@](#): > > I said they accomplished much more in the way of prosperity and community-building in the decades before the CRA, VRA, and Great Society, than they have since. Polling shows that most black people disagree with you. Libertarians opposed the CRA and VRA, for the most part, as well as championing the intentions and goals of the Confederacy, so black people have good reason to be suspicious of the motives of your political philosophy. > [@](#): > > Because I casually admonish all people to stay politically invisible. Democracy, in such a huge population, is not an appropriate mechanism for a minority. In a democracy, every individual is his/her own minority. Staying invisible didn’t protect black people from lynching, segregation, and Jim Crow. Only speaking out and being politically active protected them. Attempts at invisibility have an incredible rate of failure for black people in advancing their freedom and quality of life. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/573 "2017-09-24T19:18:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The VRA and CRA made black people’s lives far safer and far better. Those came through organizing and peaceful activism. So activism was also very effective in making the lives of black people better. I think you will find that violent crime has increased in many black communities after the VRA and CRA. What other metric are you using for “better” because your claim of “safer” is wrong. > [@](#): > > Cite that Coates is a Marxist? Replace “Black” with “worker” in his writings and get back to me. An elite class has systematically exploited a victim class and profited from its gains. > [@](#): > > Very, very few Americans believe that taxes are “violence”, so this argument will strike many or most as pretty ridiculous. So was abolition. > [@](#): > > Polling shows that most black people disagree with you. With what specifically, that Blacks created much value before Good Whitey saved them? I doubt it. > [@](#): > > Libertarians opposed the CRA and VRA, for the most part, as well as championing the intentions and goals of the Confederacy, so black people have good reason to be suspicious of the motives of your political philosophy. They have even better reasons to be suspicious of yours, but for now that is not the case. > [@](#): > > Staying invisible didn’t protect black people from lynching, segregation, and Jim Crow. Only speaking out and being politically active protected them. Wrong. Black people created much to be proud of before some became politically active. Your refusal to acknowledge the triumphs of Black communities is disrespectful and shows disregard for history. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/574 "2017-09-24T19:25:57Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I think you will find that violent crime has increased in many black communities after the VRA and CRA. What other metric are you using for “better”? I see no evidence that the two things have anything to do with each other. Crime went up for every group in the country in the 70s through the 90s, and then went down again in the 00s and teens. > [@](#): > > Replace “Black” with “worker” in his writings and get back to me. An elite class has systematically exploited a victim class and profited from its gains. LOL. I’m not going to do your work for you. Marxist is a pretty specific accusation – an adherent to the philosophy of Marx. If you think so, find in his writings in which he’s said that he agrees with the philosophy of Marx. > [@](#): > > So was abolition. What? Abolition was ridiculous? Or abolition was violence? > [@](#): > > With what specifically, that Blacks created much value before Good Whitey saved them? I doubt it. No, that life was better for them prior to the CRA and VRA, or that political activism should be avoided. > [@](#): > > They have even better reasons to be suspicious of yours, but for now that is not the case. I trust black people. Based on your statements here and elsewhere, you don’t. > [@](#): > > Wrong. Black people created much to be proud of before some became politically active. Your refusal to acknowledge the triumphs of Black communities is disrespectful and shows disregard for history. I’ve never said anything of the kind. What black Americans endured during slavery and achieved afterwards is incredible. So far, you’ve repeatedly misinterpreted the things I’ve said. Hopefully this was just a mistake, and not related to your very personal negative feelings for me (based on my employment, IIRC). ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/575 "2017-09-24T19:27:30Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Booker T. Washington, reborn. Although, he had a lot better excuses than you do. Booker T. Washington needs no excuses. The greatest, most prosperous Black communities were built on his ideas. For liberals and progressives, Blacks existed between the Civil War and the Civil Rights era only to be victims of Bad Whitey. They exhibit no knowledge of the great accomplishments of Blacks during this period. If it were true that after slavery, Blacks did nothing but serve as a punching bag, they would not have emerged after WWII as a strong, economically vibrant community ready to make demands for Civil Rights. They did so because of the groundwork laid by heeding advice from Washington and others. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/576 "2017-09-24T19:30:06Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Booker T. Washington needs no excuses. The greatest, most prosperous Black communities were built on his ideas. > > For liberals and progressives, Blacks existed between the Civil War and the Civil Rights era only to be victims of Bad Whitey. They exhibit no knowledge of the great accomplishments of Blacks during this period. Whenever you describe how liberals and progressives feel, you inevitably get it wrong. There are tons of liberals and progressives here who would be happy to tell you our views, if only you’d actually be interested in learning how others believe. Those who hate Judaism will be unlikely to accurately describe the beliefs of Jews. Those who hate liberalism and progressivism will be unlikely to accurately describe the beliefs of liberals and progressives. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/577 "2017-09-24T19:43:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I see no evidence that the two things have anything to do with each other. Crime went up for every group in the country in the 70s through the 90s, and then went down again in the 00s and teens. You claimed they were safer, not me. What metric are you using for “better”? As I said and you verified, the “safer” claim is wrong. > [@](#): > > LOL. I’m not going to do your work for you. Marxist is a pretty specific accusation – an adherent to the philosophy of Marx. If you think so, find in his writings in which he’s said that he agrees with the philosophy of Marx. He is obviously influenced by Marxists. I will say that instead of calling him a Marxist, better? > [@](#): > > What? Abolition was ridiculous? Or abolition was violence? Abolition was considered ridiculous by mainstream Americans like you. Radicals saw differently. > [@](#): > > No, that life was better for them prior to the CRA and VRA, or that political activism should be avoided. Most Blacks do not participate in political activism, so their actions speak louder than your polls. > [@](#): > > I trust black people. What a momentously vacuous statement. I trust individuals on an individual level, and distrust them on the same. > [@](#): > > Based on your statements here and elsewhere, you don’t. If I held a distrust for Black people, as you suggest, would I champion their agency, or champion legislation passed by Whites in their name? > [@](#): > > I’ve never said anything of the kind. **What black Americans endured during slavery and achieved afterwards is incredible.** So far, you’ve repeatedly misinterpreted the things I’ve said. Hopefully this was just a mistake, and not related to your very personal negative feelings for me (based on my employment, IIRC). I gratefully accept this pivot, I’m glad I have inspired you to the correct position. (in bold) ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/578 "2017-09-24T19:44:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whenever you describe how liberals and progressives feel, you inevitably get it wrong. There are tons of liberals and progressives here who would be happy to tell you our views, if only you’d actually be interested in learning how others believe. > > Those who hate Judaism will be unlikely to accurately describe the beliefs of Jews. Those who hate liberalism and progressivism will be unlikely to accurately describe the beliefs of liberals and progressives. I have only your words to go on. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/579 "2017-09-24T20:03:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I gratefully accept this pivot, I’m glad I have inspired you to the correct position. (in bold) I take it you’re not actually interested in discussion. That’s a shame. It’s always easier to accept that your own opinions and beliefs, even about others, are perfect, than to consider that you might actually not understand how others think. You don’t understand my views or beliefs. That’s not insurmountable – that’s very common. I’m always happy to try and better explain my views about things. But unfortunately you won’t even consider the possibility that you might not understand how progressives or liberals feel about things. Your mind appears to be entirely made up, with no possibility of learning or progress to be made. If, one day, you decide that maybe you don’t have perfect psychic abilities about liberals and progressives, and might actually like to learn how real-world folks like me think, then I’ll be here, as will other liberals and progressives. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725/580 "2017-09-25T17:31:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Part of the cultural changes will come from desegregation (which can be related to legislation). If your kids go to school with and become friends with black kids, they’re a lot less likely to have racist ideas about black people. What do mean? Like school bussing? Is THAT what Coates is talking about? > [@](#): > > The rest comes from media and the like, including writing articles describing these sorts of injustices. But neither Coates nor I claims to have all the answers on how to fix this. So do you think there is anything the black community could be doing differently along the lines of what Shodan suggests that could accelerate or complement the changes we all want to see in society? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-the-first-white-president-article-in-the-atlantic-by-ta-nehisi-coates/795725.md?page=30)