Since it’s such a recurring theme of Coates’ writing, it’s tough to not get into it when discussing the overall topic of white supremacism and racism in America, but it’s still probably beyond the scope of the OP. Sorry if I’m hijacking my own thread!
Not sure if you’re intentionally alluding to this or not, but (West) Germany did pay reparations for the Holocaust.
Don’t you understand? “Slavery is a disease not a behavioral issue.”
Yes, that was intentional.
Couldn’t this argument be used to deny responsibility for literally every sin of the government? Not just past sins – which I see on preview to be already mentioned – but even current sins?
Just as we’re not responsible for the sins of our parents, we’re also not responsible for the sins of complete strangers. This can include government agents such as police officers. Sheriff Arpaio was apparently responsible for tens of millions of dollars of costs that were the result of the many lawsuits filed against his various civil rights transgressions. Taxpayers must ultimately foot such a bill, and not just the people who voted for him. Even the people who campaigned vigorously against his re-election are still stuck with the government’s bill. And not to forget, even children who had never had a chance to vote against him, but came of age afterward and got jobs – and therefore became regular adult taxpayers – have to help pay the bills racked up by these lawsuits.
This is not ideal. It’s not the best of all possible worlds. But I think the underlying principle here is fairly clear.
We need some way for people who were wronged by the government to receive restitution for those wrongs, when the transgressions are finally and fairly acknowledged. This isn’t unusual even for quite terrible wrongs: the German example has already been mentioned. The intended point of this is not to punish children who were too young to vote at the time the crime happened. The intended point of this is not to make any individual suffer. The point is simply that the government is a human institution, and therefore fallible – but the fallibility of the institution is not carte blanche to ignore the responsibilities it has to the people it has previously wronged. It’s not ideal, but it’s also the regular way of the world, that citizens are stuck with the sins of a government they didn’t choose. I don’t want my own tax dollars paying for starting an unnecessary war overseas but I don’t have a lot of leeway in that matter.
If people aren’t interested in this digression, then I can leave this here.
My own original point was that I don’t understand any argument that says “I wasn’t responsible, therefore I shouldn’t pay.” I don’t get that. This is not a principle that holds generally with respect to literally anything else the government does. But I’ve said my piece on it and I can stop arguing it.
Obama vs McCain data:
Obama won a stunning 54 percent of young white voters supported Obama, compared with 44 percent who went for McCain
96 percent of black voters supported.
White college graduates, 35 percent of voters, broke for McCain 51 to 47 percent.
It was African Americans and Latino who voted on race, not whites where were mostly split or 60-40.
I think this greatly misinterprets the statistics. Blacks have overwhelmingly supported white candidates – in fact, the vast majority of the presidential candidates that black voters have overwhelmingly supported were white. Black voters have, recently, voted overwhelmingly in support of the Democratic party, not in support of black candidates. Black voters have overwhelmingly opposed various black candidates in favor of white candidates in some statewide races.
Hey look, another weekend of white grievance politics.
But Trump’s base really cares about economic issues, right??
So be it.
Blacks had little cooperation from Whites during the decades before the CRA, VRA, and Great Society, yet they managed to create strong communities of increasing prosperity. So they indeed prospered through "agency’ by my deeply weird definition.
Coates is concerned with enforcement of property rights alone? If so I have been misreading him badly. I believe he calls for a fairly comprehensive suite of policies that would not have anything to do with enforcing Black-owned property rights.
As a Marxist, Coates fails to make the correct distinctions between classes. I am a supporter of reparations from a strict property rights perspective, and there is much daylight between his program and mine. So, yes it has everything to do with his political and economic confusion.
No, there is bad blood between Coates and “white” leftists because Coates does not pat them on the back, and they desperately want his approval.
Yes Black pride and self-sufficiency is “blah blah blah”. It is unbelievable the things liberals think it is ok to say. This goes well with the earlier poster who claimed Black triumphs came in the form of White legislation. To the contrary, the things you claim are blah blah blah, helped the Black community, indeed the entire Diaspora, to survive the terrors of White governments.
He is indeed a Marxist, but that’s not so much of an attack, but an explanation for when he is in error.
No the “USA” should not pay damages. The “USA” can only acquire funds to finance reparations through the initiation of further violence. Victims of violence should seek redress in court. Hopefully many of these wrongs can be addressed as they should, acknowledging the role of the individual in society, on a case by case basis.
I believe those who commit acts of violence should do more than say sorry. Indeed they should do more than advocate for policies in which the concepts of aggressive violence and victimhood are manipulated in such a way as to render the terms unusable for communication.
Ok, first Coates would agree with everything I say, now I am his White Boogieman.
I never said Blacks should be politically disenfranchised. I said they accomplished much more in the way of prosperity and community-building in the decades before the CRA, VRA, and Great Society, than they have since.
And since this makes me evil, you must think the opposite: “Blacks should not pull themselves up by their bootstraps and should not make jobs for themselves and should clamor to be uplifted by Good Whitey.”
Because liberals want all of the poor to clamor to be uplifted by the government. They do not believe in individuals uplifting themselves.
I understand why people are angry. My goal is to direct their anger to the appropriate targets.
Because I casually admonish all people to stay politically invisible. Democracy, in such a huge population, is not an appropriate mechanism for a minority. In a democracy, every individual is his/her own minority.
Yes Coates was spot-on about that.
If we are talking about reparations, there are thousands of living and recently-deceased victims of the US government that have a good claim for restitution. Quite a bit live in countries the US military has attacked and occupied. If the government courts were concerned with justice, they would conclude that the US military, from the top to the bottom, and its associated firms and contractors should pay reparations to those victims.
The point is, the case for Black reparations is much murkier than other cases in recent times, so why do current progressives prioritize that case? Perhaps because it falls into the White Man’s Burden paradigm that progressives are still stuck in, lo these many decades. Or maybe because they continue to support many actions of the US Government that rack up innocent victims on a daily basis.
The VRA and CRA made black people’s lives far safer and far better. Those came through organizing and peaceful activism. So activism was also very effective in making the lives of black people better.
Cite that Coates is a Marxist?
Very, very few Americans believe that taxes are “violence”, so this argument will strike many or most as pretty ridiculous.
Polling shows that most black people disagree with you. Libertarians opposed the CRA and VRA, for the most part, as well as championing the intentions and goals of the Confederacy, so black people have good reason to be suspicious of the motives of your political philosophy.
Staying invisible didn’t protect black people from lynching, segregation, and Jim Crow. Only speaking out and being politically active protected them. Attempts at invisibility have an incredible rate of failure for black people in advancing their freedom and quality of life.
I think you will find that violent crime has increased in many black communities after the VRA and CRA. What other metric are you using for “better” because your claim of “safer” is wrong.
Replace “Black” with “worker” in his writings and get back to me. An elite class has systematically exploited a victim class and profited from its gains.
So was abolition.
With what specifically, that Blacks created much value before Good Whitey saved them? I doubt it.
They have even better reasons to be suspicious of yours, but for now that is not the case.
Wrong. Black people created much to be proud of before some became politically active. Your refusal to acknowledge the triumphs of Black communities is disrespectful and shows disregard for history.
I see no evidence that the two things have anything to do with each other. Crime went up for every group in the country in the 70s through the 90s, and then went down again in the 00s and teens.
LOL. I’m not going to do your work for you. Marxist is a pretty specific accusation – an adherent to the philosophy of Marx. If you think so, find in his writings in which he’s said that he agrees with the philosophy of Marx.
What? Abolition was ridiculous? Or abolition was violence?
No, that life was better for them prior to the CRA and VRA, or that political activism should be avoided.
I trust black people. Based on your statements here and elsewhere, you don’t.
I’ve never said anything of the kind. What black Americans endured during slavery and achieved afterwards is incredible. So far, you’ve repeatedly misinterpreted the things I’ve said. Hopefully this was just a mistake, and not related to your very personal negative feelings for me (based on my employment, IIRC).
Booker T. Washington needs no excuses. The greatest, most prosperous Black communities were built on his ideas.
For liberals and progressives, Blacks existed between the Civil War and the Civil Rights era only to be victims of Bad Whitey. They exhibit no knowledge of the great accomplishments of Blacks during this period.
If it were true that after slavery, Blacks did nothing but serve as a punching bag, they would not have emerged after WWII as a strong, economically vibrant community ready to make demands for Civil Rights. They did so because of the groundwork laid by heeding advice from Washington and others.
Whenever you describe how liberals and progressives feel, you inevitably get it wrong. There are tons of liberals and progressives here who would be happy to tell you our views, if only you’d actually be interested in learning how others believe.
Those who hate Judaism will be unlikely to accurately describe the beliefs of Jews. Those who hate liberalism and progressivism will be unlikely to accurately describe the beliefs of liberals and progressives.
You claimed they were safer, not me. What metric are you using for “better”? As I said and you verified, the “safer” claim is wrong.
He is obviously influenced by Marxists. I will say that instead of calling him a Marxist, better?
Abolition was considered ridiculous by mainstream Americans like you. Radicals saw differently.
Most Blacks do not participate in political activism, so their actions speak louder than your polls.
What a momentously vacuous statement. I trust individuals on an individual level, and distrust them on the same.
If I held a distrust for Black people, as you suggest, would I champion their agency, or champion legislation passed by Whites in their name?
I gratefully accept this pivot, I’m glad I have inspired you to the correct position. (in bold)
I have only your words to go on.
I take it you’re not actually interested in discussion. That’s a shame. It’s always easier to accept that your own opinions and beliefs, even about others, are perfect, than to consider that you might actually not understand how others think.
You don’t understand my views or beliefs. That’s not insurmountable – that’s very common. I’m always happy to try and better explain my views about things. But unfortunately you won’t even consider the possibility that you might not understand how progressives or liberals feel about things. Your mind appears to be entirely made up, with no possibility of learning or progress to be made.
If, one day, you decide that maybe you don’t have perfect psychic abilities about liberals and progressives, and might actually like to learn how real-world folks like me think, then I’ll be here, as will other liberals and progressives.
What do mean? Like school bussing? Is THAT what Coates is talking about?
So do you think there is anything the black community could be doing differently along the lines of what Shodan suggests that could accelerate or complement the changes we all want to see in society?