On the topic of white culture and society at large, I’d agree with Andy there is not as well defined a white culture for the black culture that has developed in America. In part because until recently “white Americans” would probably just refer to themselves as “Americans”, understanding that they make up the larger circle that other smaller groups fit into.
However I think that might be changing. Do a google search for “white people” or “hey white people”. When a group is addressed as such, as is the norm nowadays, they will start thinking of themselves not as the larger part of a circle, but being of a separate circle. I think this is where we might run into the problem of thinking that anyone can criticize “white culture” or certain white people because they fit into American society. It might be true now, but I think Coates would agree with me that whiteness being synonymous with society at large is a bad thing, and we would do best to stay away from conventions which treat it as such. At least, thats where I see us heading in far future
We are on post 600+. We have gone way beyond discussing the article exclusively.
There seems to be this effort from the left to minimize the efforts and achievements of Asians because it makes other minorities (particularly blacks) look bad. Why does Asian success have to be explained away as if whites gave Asians their success or that they started off with advantages that the average blacks (or even whites) didn’t have?
It is this sort of instinct that help create the mindset that Asians didn’t really earn or deserve their academic achievement so its OK to minimize it to make room for more whites and other minorities who worked hard for their grades and scores. Why is it so hard to accept that much of Asian success lies with hard work and making sacrifices for education? Its not like Asians are the only ones that make sacrifices but much of the gap between Asian achievement and the achievement of there races can be explained by a gap in the focus on education and effort.
But I think that a lot of people including Coates and maybe you don’t want to accept any other explanation for black underachievement other than racism. And while racism exists, its no longer enough to explain the huge chasm in achievement between blacks and whites.
I think that your first sentence there is entirely wrong, as I’ve ever seen iiandyiiii or coates say that there are no other explanations than racism for the difficulties experienced by that demographic. I have seen them say that racism has played a role, and a larger role than some would like to acknowledge, but exclusive, nah, you’ll need to back that up.
Would you like to expound your opinion on what it is exactly that is responsible for the achievement gap?
They are not just my thoughts. These are facts, inconvenient facts for you and anyone else who thinks like Coates. East Asians outperform blacks and whites. Liberals realize that Asian success is inconvenient for the point they are trying to make so they minimize this achievement and other liberals play along as if the only reason blacks are not achieving parity is because of ongoing racism.
Closing your mind to all possible explanations for the black achievement gap that might place some of the burden on blacks is willful ignorance and I thought you were better than that. I am particularly disappointed that you have resorted to calling me a racist because I am challenging your world view.
I haven’t called you a racist. I’m just bored when people talk about how their own culture or own people are superior to other groups. It’s incredibly common and provides no useful information except “Oh, here’s another person who thinks their own group/culture/people is extra-special and wonderful and others should emulate them”. Any statistics on achievement for Asians are irrelevant to this conversation. If that’s what you want to talk about, perhaps you should start your own thread.
Everything I have ever read by Coates has focused on racism as the source of all the woes of the black community. I spent about 5 minutes googling for Coates articles where he holds up a mirror to the black community in a critical way. Do you know of any?
I thought I had. I think a lot of it is culture. Asians, particularly those from a culture with heavy Confucian influence have a 6000 year history of social mobility based on an imperial exam. It wasn’t great social mobility but it was probably better than anything we saw anywhere else in the world for non-military types. And those cultures developed a focus on education.
The descendants of slaves OTOH have 400 years of slavery during which their ancestors could be punished for learning how to read. Then another 100 years of segregation during which education didn’t necessarily open a whole lot of doors. Combine that with “separate but equal” educational resources and it would be a little weird if education had developed into the same sort of holy grail among the descendants of slaves as it had in Confucian cultures.
I don’t think cultural focus on education explains everything. I think structural racism exists. I think institutional racism exists. But these are no longer near sufficient to explain the achievement gap.
I’m sure it’s the rich Confucian tradition in Nigerian culture that is the reason that Nigerian immigrants tend to perform better and earn more than East Asian immigrant groups.
Or maybe immigrant groups are entirely uncomparable both to each other and to groups that did not originate from immigration.
So when you say that I am saying that “my people are superior to black people” that isn’t implying racism on my part? In thought the definition of racism included thinking that my people are superior to other races of people.
Thank you for your second attempt at junior modding but until a mod tells me that I am derailing the thread I consider it just natural for a discussion about an article about racism to expand into a larger discussion about race and that author after 600+ posts. Seriously, the Coates article wasn’t good enough to warrant more than a few pages of posts.
I think statistics on Asians are extremely relevant especially when people expend effort to try and minimize Asian accomplishments by implying that Asian achievement is the result of advantages that Asians had over blacks (and even whites). When I point to Vietnamese refugees as an example of Asian achievement and I am told that this is because the Vietnamese refugees had all sorts of advantages over Blacks and even whites, this starts to sound less like critical thought and more like white people trying to explain why THEY are underachieving compared to Asians.
This is one of the sources of the liberal indifference to anti-Asian discrimination in things like college admissions. Its the one form of racial discrimination that is acceptable on a bipartisan basis. Conservatives are racist against Asians because of resentment of Asian success and the racism that generally runs through their ideology and liberals are racist because Asian achievement undermines their arguments about social justice. Conservatives and liberals alike want Asians to fail (or at least succeed less) so that the world will fit their theoretical models of “whites are the best at everything” or “minorities are doing poorly mostly because of external forces”
Liberals have kinda sorta gotten comfortable with Jewish success by telling themselves that Jews are more or less white. But the otherness of Asians makes this a difficult argument tom make wrt to Asians.
They have a better culture than the descendants of slaves. You seem to be under the impression that I am saying that skin pigment is the cause of the achievement gap.
I think its pretty clearly culture. Why do the descendants of less racially mixed Caribbean slaves do so much better than the descendants of more racially mixed American slaves? Did the mixing of whites and blacks creates less talented African Americans? I don’t think its genetic.
A significant portion of African Americans can trace their genealogy back to Nigeria, the Nigerian coast was part of the slave coast of Africa where American slavers would go to buy slaves.
And I am not saying that Confucian culture is the only possible source of reverence for education, perhaps there is something about Nigerian culture that promotes a reverence for education as well.
But Nigerian Americans are sort of a special case, Nigerian Americans have exactly the sort of advantages that others were ascribing to the Vietnamese refugees.
Most Nigerian Americans (or their parents) were upper or professional class or came here on student Visas. Nigerian Americans represent a significant brain drain on Nigeria. This doesn’t mean they don’t have a culture of reverence for education to rival those from Confucian cultures but the alternative explanation anti-Asian racists put forward to explain Asian achievement is more applicable to Nigerian Americans.
I find it strange that these cultures are subdivided, even by city, but black culture is monolithic? Is New Orleans black culture not completely different to Detroit black culture?
There’s also a lot of black people in America who have and want nothing to do with the black culture you’re talking about, the black half of my family have moved to a lot of different countries and always avoid moving to the black areas, mostly because they’re afraid their children will get drawn into the ‘Black Culture’ there…they might just be racists though (a fair few of them don’t like whitey(but I’m one of the alright ones)) but it’d be an intra-racial racism…culturism maybe?
Sorry for continuing the hijack about immigrant statistics. I’m not interested; it has nothing to do with Coates article or this overall discussion, which is about white supremacism in American culture and society, and the harm it’s done and is still doing to black people. Whether or not there are problems within black culture is irrelevant; whether or not Asians have succeeded in many ways, and how/why, is irrelevant; whether or not other immigrant groups have succeeded is irrelevant.
Implicit in your statement about “culture” here is an admission that said culture, or at least this particular aspect of it, is itself the product of racism. So… it’s still racism?
Actually, the bolded part has to be a part of the conversation. Black culture, since it is a part of the overall American culture, is going to change if American culture changes. Since we know that American culture, and therefore black culture, have changed quite a bit over the past 60 years, we have to come up with a reasonable way to distinguish problems in the black community that are from racism versus problems that are a part of the black culture. If you cannot do that then the only answers are either 1) blame racism for everything or 2) blame black culture for everything. Neither of those answers are likely to be true.
That might be an interesting conversation, but I think it’s a different one. The extent and effects of white supremacism in American culture, society, systems, and institutions don’t have anything to do with black culture.
How you respond to the historic racism is important too though, if were denied education you could;
Say that you didn’t need it, so it’s not worth having, or
You could push it as important so that your children get chances you were denied
I think both of these things happened but the first group treated the second as traitors saying they’re ‘acting white’ so the second group run as far away as possible from the first and hate that they’re lumped together as a group.
I wonder if the children of the second group are allowed to criticise ‘black culture’ since they actively avoid being part of it.
The problem, iiandyiiii, is that even though bigotry is a problem and was a problem you can’t precisely quantify the effects since there are other variables in play. It’s like global warming debates. It’s clear to anyone with a decent science background that humanity’s actions contribute to the climate. Proving exactly what actions cause what exact results are unknowable.
So, if you want groups to do better you need to look at multiple variables and not make excuses.
What are you talking about? I’m talking about the article in the OP, which is about white supremacism in American history, culture, and society. It’s not about black culture. Black culture is a separate topic. By all means start a thread and talk about black culture if you want, but that’s not the topic of this thread. The only reason to bring it up would be to avoid talking about the subject of the article.
Yes, culture is affected by the history of that culture. In the case of the descendants of slaves, slavery and racism are formative elements of that culture.
60 years are not enough to have diluted the effects of that slavery and racism. Its one of the reasons I support affirmative action for blacks and American Indians. IMHO it is one of the only effective means of accelerating the dispersion of the effects of that prior racism.
And sure racism is still alive in modern day America but it is not nearly as robust as it has been in the past and but for the toxicity in black culture, the descendants of slaves might be doing about average across the board. You can’t just blame modern day white supremacy for everything. And you certainly shouldn’t go around denigrating the achievements of other minorities because they are making under-achieving minorities look bad.