# Don't be such a Jerk, Ukulele Ike **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 5, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714 "2003-01-05T03:30:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/141 "2003-01-06T00:51:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\ ***Hamlet** , no, that’s not what she said, and it’s quite clearly what she said. You’re just reading it some other way out of spite or vindictfulness, or something that I really don’t care to understand. I know a lot of parents have a “hot button” on being accused of not caring when they put their kids in daycare, but really, this is too much. > > Anyway, our child won’t be in daycare unless one of us gets hurt or something and can’t work or care for the child. \*\* Look, **KellyM** , I don’t much like people ascribing negative motives to a simple question of mine, so I just suggest you get off your cross and quit with the martyr act. It was annoying the first 500 times you did it too. **wring** , It appears I would fit the general mode of your siblings, I suppose we could survive in Chicago on one of our measly salaries, but I also want to make sure the kids can afford college, etc, so both of us work. My daughter is, thus, in daycare “by choice.” I only wished for **lee** to explain her statement further, because, as she stated it, there was a clear implication that some parents in my situation may not care for their children enough. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/142 "2003-01-06T00:52:09Z")
Have the resources. That means to me that one can afford monetarily to live and raise their child in a way that they would find acceptable. Not subsistance. It also means that they have a parent with the temperment to stay home, I know not everyone will be able to do that even if they have the means. We are making monetary sacrifices by having someone stay home, but it is important to us. We are not going to go into poverty doing so either. Most parents I know only put their child in day care because the altenative is poverty or lack of health care. I also know of people that don’t even consider staying home with their child even though monetarily they are more comfortable than I will ever be. Some have expressed to me a lack of understanding why anyone who could afford to pay someone else to do that would stay home. I don’t understand that at all. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/143 "2003-01-06T01:02:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\*wring, that’s what I’m asking lee to explain. What exactly are the circumstances that equate “not caring enough”. I DID read the second part of the statement, and it still left me with a bad taste. Plenty of people care deeply for their children AND have them in daycare. > > And that response above that looks directed at you, was directed at KellyM. When we asked for explanations, she basically just said we were jerks without offering one. \*\* I saw the response from **KellyM** , and that it was directed at me, vs. all of the others who’ve asked for an explanation. I _suspect_ that it was directed at me 'cause when I asked the question, I pointed out that I “got” the other part, and wanted clarification of finer points of the issue. What I saw happening was folks just quoting the ‘caring enough’ part as if it had been a stand alone phrase, when it clearly had not been. Generally, people will fight back when they feel they’re being attacked. and I’ve seen some fairly nasty attacks here. my position here: 1. I’m not a Disney fan, but I also didn’t restrict it from my house. 2. I’m quite certain there were things I did as a parent that people rolled their eyes about, some even told me they thought I was doing a poor job. Depending on the situation (stranger in a store/friend I cared about), I would give the comments due weight. 3. Denying Disney from the home doesn’t come anywhere **near** the threashold (IMHO) of “serious fucking up by parents”, but rather in the rhelm of “hey whatever floats your boat, but losta luck on trying to regulate that one”. 4. They, however, hava an absolute right to attempt to do this. 5. Others, have the corresponding right to :rolleyes: as much as they please - **however** _telling \* them that they \*\* guarentee_\* that they’re going to seriously fuck up their kids by this stance is absolutely unfucking believable. As I’ve said, I’ve **seen** plenty of fucked up kids, and it was **never**'cause of something so goddam minor as “were you deprived of Disney products”? 6. They ( **lee/KellyM** ) overreacted to **Uke’s** comments which started this train wreck. and have subsequently gotten to be the object of a pile on based on their desire to do the best (in their eyes) for their kid. and since their “do the best in their eyes” is to (for one, and the one of discussion here) to attempt to keep Disney out of their home, and for **that** folks are \*\*telling \*\* them “Your kids will be fucked up” is so seriously ugly, I don’t blame them at this point to react defensively to other challenges. Now that you have clarification (at least from **Kelly** ) re the “caring enough and having the resources to” comment, that they don’t claim that all kids in day care don’t have caring parents, even if said parents had some financial resources, can we at least put that one to rest? ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/144 "2003-01-06T01:13:34Z")
I read all five pages of this. Wow- what a total witch hunt. Rule # 286 of Doper’s Inc: Don’t voice being offended if the source is a moderator, not even in the Pit. Rule # 287: Stereotypes are not okay unless they involve idealistic first time parents. Doper’s will be taken to task for all other stereotypes, in the pursuit of the elimination of ignorance. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/145 "2003-01-06T01:18:37Z")
**hardygrrl** , our rule regarding Disney and **zev** ’s regarding dietary matters are both matters of choice that our respective families have made. We have our reasons for our rules, and **zev** and his family has their reasons for theirs. You may think that **zev** ’s rules, being justified by “My G-d said so”, are somehow more justified, or dignified, or meritorious. Whatever. I respect **zev** ’s choice to follow those rules (for whatever reason) and impose them on his family, and I would hope that you’d respect my choice to do the same with my rules and my family. I used **zev** as an example because I know he has strongly held beliefs about right and wrong, because I know he’s followed those beliefs in the face of inconvenience before and would not change his practices merely because he found them inconvenient or difficult to follow in a given situation, and because most of the people on the Boards also know these things. ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/146 "2003-01-06T01:20:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lee \* > \*\* > What daycare provider? We care enough and fortunately have the resources that our child will be cared for by a parent not a group of strangers. \*\* Some of you are being unfair. You’re leaving out the “and fortunate enough” part entirely. The existence of two qualifiers does not indicate that they are mutually exclusive. Talk about panties in a wad. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Morelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Morelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morelin)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/147 "2003-01-06T01:32:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bren\_Cameron \* > \*\* > The difference, in my mind, between banning Harry Potter and banning Disney is the age at which kids are exposed to those things–you get Disney as soon as you’re born. You get Harry Potter much later. By the time you’re old enough to read Harry Potter, you have a much wider experience to go from, and are better able to make your own choices. \*\* Not to argue too much, but I have parents come into my store, looking for picture book, or younger versions of Harry Potter to read to their infant/toddler. And people looking to purchase books for a 5-year old and up “who loves Harry Potter.” So their exposure isn’t that much later. Morelin ---
**Author:** ![hardygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@hardygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardygrrl)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/148 "2003-01-06T01:35:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\ ***hardygrrl** , our rule regarding Disney and **zev** ’s regarding dietary matters are both matters of choice that our respective families have made. We have our reasons for our rules, and **zev** and his family has their reasons for theirs. You may think that **zev** ’s rules, being justified by “My G-d said so”, are somehow more justified, or dignified, or meritorious. Whatever. \*\* The debating style of champions, ladies and gentlemen. Again, and please follow me, won’t you… **Zev’s** choice is based on faith. Yours on a dislike of a corporation. How are these equal? ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/149 "2003-01-06T01:37:23Z")
**hardygrrl** , I never said they were equal. That’s your contention alone. However, I do expect you to respect mine the same way you’d respect **zev** ’s, and in that sense they are equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/150 "2003-01-06T01:38:48Z")
I can’t believe some of you regarding the Disney thing. wring is right—you might privately think lee’s and KellyM’s preferences are silly or whatever, but why the hell do you _care_ so much? Disney ain’t that big of a deal. Growing up, we only listened to Classical. We pretty much were exposed to hardly any modern music in our household. (Though my parents didn’t have an official “ban” on popular music.) We didn’t watch a lot of TV, either. Very little TV, actually. And the responses from other kids (especially because of the music) was not unlike the way you are reacting here. Like it was some frickin’ tragedy, like our family’s choice to only listen to Classical was an affront to everyone else’s more popular musical tastes. Like our parents had a lot of _nerve_ to rock the boat. I also seriously think that many people were irked, kinda like they were thinking, “What? Do you think you’re _better_ than me?” I seriously think that was in the back of many people’s minds. I don’t know if the same mindset is going on here, but I wonder. And I am a big fan of a lot of Disney products. Grew up going to Disneyland. Loved “Fantasia” (all that Classical music!) and so on. But I just don’t _give a shit_ if someone doesn’t want to expose their kids to it. Did lee overreact to Ike? Yeah, probably. Did lee and KellyM come off kind of strong with their “rule” about no Disney to their friends? Perhaps. But damned if they should have to tolerate friends who say, “By hook or by crook, your kid _will_ get Disney gifts.” That’s just beyond rude. I had similar things happen to me as a kid, as a matter of fact. When schoolmates learned that I eschewed popular music, they made a point of blaring it in my ear, and forbidding me from playing or listening to Classical in their presence. (As in, everyone else had their turn playing “their” music. Except for me. _Particularly_ me.) Let me ask some of you who think that lee’s and KellyM’s decision to avoid Disney is silly and absurd: Do you think my parents were out of line by limiting/discouraging us from listening to popular music? Do you think a kid who is not exposed to much popular music is going to be “seriously messed up” as well? This thread is bringing back all those fond childhood memories. It’s pathetic, really. It’s just _Disney_, people. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glory)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/151 "2003-01-06T01:44:37Z")
Sorry, I still don’t get the prohibition of Disney based soley on the lack of adequate portayals of good motherhood. Disney generally adapts existing works, it’s not like they ONLY pick literature that lacks strong mother figures as Dumbo, 101 Dalmations and Peter Pan demonstrate. It would be hypocritical to deny Disney on the basis of “poor motherhood” without also ruling out the following: 1. Harry Potter - orphan 2. Heidi - ends up living with her grandfather who doesn’t want to take her in at first, I’m guessing orphan 3. A Little Princess - mother’s dead, spends half the book thinking her dad is dead 4. A Secret Garden - Double whammy, Mary’s parents died of cholera in India, Colin’s mother is dead 5. Anne of Green Gables - orphan 6. Wizard of Oz - Dorothy lives with Aunt Em and Uncle Henry 7. Miss Bianca - spends all her time rescuing orphans 8. Waterbabies - orphan 9. Ballet Shoes - Noel Streatfeild - not one, not two but THREE orphans 10. Various fairy tales as mentioned previously - Snow White (dead mother), Cinderella (dead mother), Little Mermaid (dead mother) “Orphanhood” is obviously a dominant trend in children’s literature, not some dastardly plan of Disney’s to portray mothers in a poor light. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/152 "2003-01-06T01:46:25Z")
Their kids will have the same “fond” memories, **yosemitebabe**. I honestly don’t care if their kids ever see Disney or not. I just think there are more worthy things to be concerned about. Picking Disney as the family adversary seems foolhardy. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/153 "2003-01-06T01:51:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rysdad \* > \*\* I just think there are more worthy things to be concerned about. Picking Disney as the family adversary seems foolhardy. \*\* absolutely. however, as is their right, that’s the battle line they’ve chosen. ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/154 "2003-01-06T02:04:16Z")
First of all, I would like to apologise to both **lee** and **KellyM** if I have seemed to hold them to a higher standard than which I would hold my other fellow Dopers. I simply don’t “get” why Disney animations are such a big deal while other Disney productions are “acceptable” (and heaps of those also have absent parents of both genders). I don’t “get” why Disney is being held to a higher standard than other production houses. And I sure as SHIT don’t get why this whole discussion is about “Disney” values as opposed to media values in general. The Disney company - in all of its various guises over the years - has done some pretty shitty things to “minorities” which we could all understand if those arguments were put forward. It seems that only Disney animation is unacceptable - and that I DON’T get. If Disney portrays women - and, in particular, mothers - in a way which doesn’t reflect your household values, then ban Disney absolutely. Your child is going to be no more messed up by missing out on “the Disney experience” than my children were messed up by growing up in a RL community which is pretty much relflected by the SDMB. We ALL want the best for our children. NO-ONE, but NO-ONE, ever has a child saying “I think I’ll have a kid so that I can raise the world’s biggest shit-head, ever”. I’m now going to bow out of this thread and discuss my opinions with **lee** and **KellyM** on a “one to one” basis via email. I’m not prepared to be part of the _posse_. ---
**Author:** ![mikan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@mikan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/155 "2003-01-06T02:07:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grendel72 \* > \*\*A belief is a belief, whether you claim it is justified by a mythological figure or by logic. > > This is incredibly ugly, the combination of moderator ass-kissing (which is in and of itself not always a bad thing) and piling on. \*\* Amen. To both parts. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/156 "2003-01-06T02:09:54Z")
The problem **wring** is that just about every reason given has been idiotic and non-fact based. A religous prohibition can’t be argued with. “God doesn’t want me to…” :: shrug :: Not much of a response can be made. But every time they try to justify their decision, Cecil weeps. I’d have been a whole lot happier if they’d just said “Because we choose not to have our kid watch Disney stuff.” and end it there. But the minute they try to trot out those moronic reasons (“Disney doesn’t have mother figures…um…except for some of their stories”, “Disney had a couple of racist cartoons…um…and so did every other cartoon studio”, "Disney’s name has “dis” in it and “Dis” was a place in HELL, so they’re clearly Satanic!!!..well, not that one so much) their reasons become fair game. I’ve already dealt with most of **lee’s** reasons (I’d still love to know if they’re gonna ban Warner Brothers movies and cartoons since Warner did some racist stuff once upon a time.) and **Glory** did quite well on the remaining one (are they going to forbid all fairy tales? Oz books?) and I’d love to see responses. They have _every_ right to forbid Disney, but every time I hear one of their reasons, it makes my head hurt. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/157 "2003-01-06T02:10:58Z")
That is one of the wisest posts I’ve seen in this thread so far, **reprise**. Good on you. My apologies, also, if my replies earlier seemed on th’ harsh side. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/158 "2003-01-06T02:14:57Z")
I absolutely agree, **Fenris**. But again, while we’d really like it if folks had internally consistent and justifiable reasons for all they do, it ain’t gonna really happen. I don’t want to have to admit how often I relied on the phrase “Sorry, it’s part of the Mommy rule book” as my reason Ben couldn’t do something or other. and again, it’s just Disney fercryin’ out loud. where I’m having a **real** problem was with the folks who promised that their decision to outlaw Disney was going to cause the child to be fucked up. that was uncalled for and has **less** substantiation than **lee/KellyM’s** rationale for forbidding Disney. (MHO) ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/159 "2003-01-06T02:20:51Z")
**Wring** : if they’d said “Sorry, it’s what we feel is best” or “Because we choose to do so”, I’d have shugged, thought “Weird, but whatever” and not said a word. I firmly agree that no kid is going to be fucked up by missing out on Disney and I wouldn’t dream of criticizing their right to forbid it. I’m sure that **lee/KellyM** are going to be good parents (the fact that they’re being this…detailed (not the word I’m looking for, exactly, but close)…in their choice of viewing/reading matter speaks very well of them.) I’m just debating their reasons, **NOT** their decision. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714/160 "2003-01-06T02:23:08Z")
**wring** –I think you’re missing the point of the poster who said the kids will be “seriously fucked up.” It’s not that the kid will be screwed up by lack of Disney. It’s that the kid will be screwed up by parents who are so strident over such a matter. FWIW, we’re mostly Disney-free ourselves, and intend to stay that way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-be-such-a-jerk-ukulele-ike/146714.md?page=9)