# Don't blame the players for steroid abuse in MLB **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236 "2009-02-10T16:30:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/21 "2009-02-11T15:23:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > They looked out for their wallets more than their health. I’m not excusing that, but there was a cost-benefit calculation, and it’s not impossible to understand. Baseball players already suffer a lot of injuries, so arguably some of them incurred greater long-term injury risk in return for a chance at a bigger payday. > > Even the honest players who suffered competitively got paid more. Are you sure the salary increases would not have come even with testing. I don’t really accept your reasoning that preventing testing led to the salary increases. Obviously the Union has done a great job in keeping salaries increasing, but why would it have been lesser is drug testing was in place? The ones that successfully cheated benefited financially. Giambi would be a good and easy example. But how did his cheating help an honest player whose 10 homers a year now looked unimportant in the juiced up game? It seems like salaries would have went up for all the players with or without testing and that the cheats just got a bigger share of the pie. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/22 "2009-02-11T15:33:28Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > The same thing that’s in it for players in other sports that agreed to drug testing long before MLB–the ability to earn a living without destroying their bodies by competing against juiced opponents. > Sammy Sosa is pretty strong evidence. He never hit more than 40 HR’s in a season, before exploding for 66, 63, and 64 at age 29. Then, with the advent of drug testing, he mysteriously fell back to earth. Sosa got better when he entered his prime, and worse when he exited it. Shocking. Is Jeremy Giambi a good example of how steroids helped too? There is no evidence that on a whole steroids increase performance. Look at the list of people on the Mitchell report. The entire list. Did the majority of those guys have spikes in performance? They did not. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/23 "2009-02-11T15:35:00Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Are you sure the salary increases would not have come even with testing. I don’t know, and neither did the union. They protected what they had. In the 90s, MLB’s popularity and revenue were going up and player salaries increased. They had no reason to jeopardize that. > [@](#): > > The ones that successfully cheated benefited financially. Giambi would be a good and easy example. But how did his cheating help an honest player whose 10 homers a year now looked unimportant in the juiced up game? Look at the growth in average salaries and the minimum salary. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/24 "2009-02-11T15:35:16Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > The same thing that’s in it for players in other sports that agreed to drug testing long before MLB–the ability to earn a living without destroying their bodies by competing against juiced opponents. Destroyed their bodies like who exactly? Sammy Sosa? > [@](#): > > Sammy Sosa is pretty strong evidence. He never hit more than 40 HR’s in a season, before exploding for 66, 63, and 64 at age 29. Then, with the advent of drug testing, he mysteriously fell back to earth. So in other words, we have no evidence that steroids make you a better player, but some guys got better that we have no evidence took steroids? You’ll have to explain it to me further because I don’t get it. Sammy Sosa was a power hitter in the home run era. Home runs sold tickets and that’s what MLB encouraged at the time. I’m pretty sure there is evidence that the balls were harder back in the 90s and early 00s. This was also the era that baseball began perceiving itself as a strongman competition to defeat the other team by huge point margins (like football) instead of an endurance game eked out by scrawny guys playing the probabilities (like soccer). It is no wonder a lot of guys got muscular real quick and started hitting lots of home runs. The guys who didn’t washed out of baseball. I’m sure steroids were a part of it, but they were a symptom, not the cause. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/25 "2009-02-11T15:38:54Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Home runs sold tickets and that’s what MLB encouraged at the time. The MLB believed this at the time but I’m not sure it’s true. Ticket sales remain strong even “after” the “steroid era.” > [@](#): > > I’m pretty sure there is evidence that the balls were harder back in the 90s and early 00s. I’ve never seen that evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/26 "2009-02-11T15:41:20Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > The union repeatively told the owners that drug testing would not and could not be on the table. what exactly is the union’s job? Why is preventing drug testing part of it? Isn’t looking out for union member health & safety traditionally part of a unions works? It is negociation. Each side says things that they eventually cave on. If the owners wanted it they could probably have had it at the concession of something else. It was obviously not a very important issue to the owners. The union’d job to act in the best interest of its player. Sure health and safety are part of it, but so are many other factors including privacy and money. Besides the plans of the owners or congress for that matter weren’t about health and safety. If they were they would have spent a lot less time on punishment, and a lot more time and money on education and fostering dialogue. Make it less about gotcha and more about prevention and you would have more union support. > [@](#): > > They have frankly dragged their heels for several decades on the issue of drug testing\* very successfully and have increased the backlash against the players now exposed because of it. While the owners were full steam ahead? > [@](#): > > They blocked testing of recreational drugs very well back to at least the 80s. Would you be okay if they tested for recreation drugs at your work place? ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/27 "2009-02-11T15:46:45Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Do _any_ unions volunteer their workers for invasive drug testing? I would think the assumption of innocence and the right to privacy (not to mention keeping the lynch mob at bay) would be their utmost concern. What’s in it for the players? But I don’t know, that’s why I ask. > > Hijack: Am I the only person in the world who is against drug testing in general? Because, you know, the things someone puts in their body is _nobody else’s goddamn business_? I can’t comprehend how we got to the point that it is SOP to ask for your urine at a job interview. What the fuck? I think drug testing makes sense in an environment where there are public safety issues. Say for a cop or pilot. With baseball there is no such public safety issue. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/28 "2009-02-11T15:50:38Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Destroyed their bodies like who exactly? Sammy Sosa? Like Ken Caminiti, who died at age 41. Do we have to review the deleterious long-term effects of anabolic steroids on human health? > [@DrCube](#): > > So in other words, we have no evidence that steroids make you a better player, but some guys got better that we have no evidence took steroids? You’ll have to explain it to me further because I don’t get it. We have evidence that Sammy Sosa took steroids. It isn’t evidence that would hold up in court, but we aren’t in court. Sammy Sosa went from a skinny 20-year-old rookie with the White Sox to a muscle-bound, acne-scarred 30-year-old slugger with the Cubs to a skinny washed-up 34-year-old with the Orioles. I didn’t blow in off the turnip truck. He was taking steroids. Mark McGwire took steroids (he has admitted) and got better. Barry Bonds took steroids (he has admitted, although he denies that he knew what he was doing–yeah right) and got better. Alex Rodriguez took steroids (he has admitted) and got better–and he was pretty damn good to begin with. Connect the dots. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/29 "2009-02-11T15:55:50Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > It is negociation. Each side says things that they eventually cave on. If the owners wanted it they could probably have had it at the concession of something else. It was obviously not a very important issue to the owners. > > The union’d job to act in the best interest of its player. Sure health and safety are part of it, but so are many other factors including privacy and money. Besides the plans of the owners or congress for that matter weren’t about health and safety. If they were they would have spent a lot less time on punishment, and a lot more time and money on education and fostering dialogue. Make it less about gotcha and more about prevention and you would have more union support. > > While the owners were full steam ahead? > > Would you be okay if they tested for recreation drugs at your work place? Odd, I recall blaming the owners too; I just said the Union had the greatest fault. I did not excuse the owners. You really enjoy parsing don’t you? Actually I would be OK with drug testing it as it has been a condition of employment for every job I have had since I was 18. I am not claiming I like it and I will state that I would prefer if drugs were legal so they could be taxed and we could reduce drug related crime and violence but it is not that uncommon. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/30 "2009-02-11T15:59:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The MLB believed this at the time but I’m not sure it’s true. Ticket sales remain strong even “after” the “steroid era.” That’s because fans’ expectations and desires have moved on. There is no accounting for what is fashionable. > [@](#): > > I’ve never seen that evidence. [Here.](http://www.yubanet.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/26/62715) From link: > [@](#): > > “The League decided to juice itself so they pumped the new ball into their system,” states Zavagno. “By examining the CT images of Bonds-era baseballs, you can see the ball has been upgraded to include a rubberized pill, the addition of polyester in the windings and a very hard synthetic ring or spring. As the CT images demonstrate, the League apparently allowed the composition of the baseball to further change from 1998 to 2001 destroying the integrity of the game’s statistics, including home run records.” > … > “According to our CT scans, the balls themselves are juiced,” states Zavagno. “Thomas, Sosa, Rodriguez, Griffey, Ramirez, Thome… they may or may not be entangled in the steroid scandal, but they certainly are members of the League-fabricated ‘juiced ball generation’. Bonds’ home-run record – along with other home-run milestones by different players of his generation – should have an asterisk next to their statistics: ‘achieved with League- approved juiced baseball.’” > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I think drug testing makes sense in an environment where there are public safety issues. Say for a cop or pilot. With baseball there is no such public safety issue. If a cop or pilot shows signs that they can no longer safely do their jobs, they need to be fired, regardless of what substances they are ingesting. If they do their jobs safely and properly, it doesn’t matter even if they are hard core meth addicts in their free time. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/31 "2009-02-11T16:27:02Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Mark McGwire took steroids (he has admitted) and got better. Barry Bonds took steroids (he has admitted, although he denies that he knew what he was doing–yeah right) and got better. Alex Rodriguez took steroids (he has admitted) and got better–and he was pretty damn good to begin with. Connect the dots. MCGwire hasn’t admitted taking steroids. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/32 "2009-02-12T03:52:00Z")
I am in favor of letting adult athletes use whatever substances they can get their hands on. I see no fundamental difference between banned chemicals and any other effort to improve performance. Were I in charge there would be no such proscription. As it happens, there is. However I do not understand why a player should not be “blamed” for steroid use simply because of the allure of money or some innate drive to perform or any other excuse for cheating. That’s a ridiculous argument. It is a choice to cheat and the responsibility for cheating in exchange for self-gratification falls to the cheater. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/33 "2009-02-12T09:00:05Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > ?? I don’t understand your question. What’s the difference between the players and the union? You list them as a separate item in your list of who to blame. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/34 "2009-02-12T13:32:40Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > What’s the difference between the players and the union? You list them as a separate item in your list of who to blame. You’re serious? You don’t see a difference? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/35 "2009-02-12T14:03:21Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Professional atheletes are hyper competitive and driven to perform. If they are succesfull they are given millions of dollars and the idolization of fans. When they stop performing they are booed by the fans and dropped by management without a second thought. They are in a situation where small improvements can mean millions of dollars for them and wins for their teams, while small declines can mean the loss of the dream you have devoted your life to since childhood. Steroids were available and could make them better, yet MLB did not test for them. Given the incentives involved, of course hundreds of players used them, they knew if they didn’t their competition would. Anyone else faced with a similar situation would have done the same thing. MLB should have been testing for steroids if they wanted their players not to use them. The way the system was set up encouraged players to use steroids and now people are condemning the players. The owners set up the system, and made lots of money from all the home runs. The owners and the players union are too blame for steroids in baseball. Let me see if I’ve got your argument straight… the players’ union bears responsibility for steroids, but the players don’t??? Who MADE Marvin Miller, Don Fehr and Gene Orza the leaders of the players’ union? The players themselves!!! The rest of your argument amounts to “it pays to cheat, so you can’t blame people for cheating.” Which is both ridiculous and immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/36 "2009-02-13T08:16:16Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > You’re serious? You don’t see a difference? What is the difference? The players union is made up of all the players (barring a few scabs I think). The union is the players. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/37 "2009-02-13T13:49:20Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > The same thing that’s in it for players in other sports that agreed to drug testing long before MLB–the ability to earn a living without destroying their bodies by competing against juiced opponents. > Sammy Sosa is pretty strong evidence. He never hit more than 40 HR’s in a season, before exploding for 66, 63, and 64 at age 29. Then, with the advent of drug testing, he mysteriously fell back to earth. Yep. And Bonds never hit as many as 50 homers before he hit 73…at age 36, in his 16th ML season and the start of a 4-year run of winning the MVP. Imagine that–he hadn’t won one prior to that since he was 28, then runs off a string of \*4 in a row \*starting at age 36. His first and only batting titles during that same stretch, by the way, the last one at age 39. For some reason, it became _easier_ to get around on balls later in his career, when that skill starts to deteriorate for most guys. The effect that steroids has produced on some players is undeniable. I don’t need to have seen them injecting the stuff to draw a reasonable conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/38 "2009-02-13T13:50:08Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > What is the difference? The players union is made up of all the players (barring a few scabs I think). The union is the players. The Union stopped players from volunteering to be tested. It stopped the mini-rebellion of the team where all 25 players were going to fail by not taking the test to ensure testing would go into effect in the future. The Union strong arms players into not taking less money to play where they really want to. The union enabled many players to cheat safely increasing the pressure on other players to cheat to keep up. So yes, I do see a big difference. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/39 "2009-02-13T14:06:22Z")
If I hire you, Jim, to represent me, and I authorize you to be a total self-serving prick on my behalf, while I go around telling the press “I just love to play the game, I don’t know nuthin’ 'bout 'nuthin, I just loves me some baseball,” am I any less of a self-serving prick? You’re buying some cheap PR work there. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236/40 "2009-02-13T14:19:16Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > If I hire you, Jim, to represent me, and I authorize you to be a total self-serving prick on my behalf, while I go around telling the press “I just love to play the game, I don’t know nuthin’ 'bout 'nuthin, I just loves me some baseball,” am I any less of a self-serving prick? > > You’re buying some cheap PR work there. I guess I am but I also believe that there is no way 750+ players are in agreement on this issue and the Union has successfully cowed, cajoled, and controlled dissenters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-blame-the-players-for-steroid-abuse-in-mlb/485236.md?page=3)