# Don't call him Sauron... why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 26, 2003, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462 "2003-11-26T22:23:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Moo\_the\_Magic\_Cow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@Moo\_the\_Magic\_Cow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moo_the_Magic_Cow)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/1 "2003-11-26T22:23:21Z")
It always made me kind of curious in the LOTR books that no one ever directly referred to Sauron as Sauron. It was always the Evil One or some other pseudonym/euphemism, and it always seemed a bit silly. What is with this? ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/2 "2003-11-26T22:59:55Z")
It’s a combination of notions from mythology and superstition: a Name has power, and that using someone’s Name can summon them. Thus, there is a sort of acknowledgement that using Sauron’s Name might attract his attention. Even in real life, haven’t you heard someone say they’ve got an itch, so someone must be talking about them? Same principle. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/3 "2003-11-26T23:04:06Z")
just call Sauron Voldemort and Voldemort Sauron, problem solved! ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/4 "2003-11-26T23:25:45Z")
Actually, several characters refer to him as Sauron, starting with Gandalf when he explains the history of the ring to Frodo. First he mentions a dark power, then the Dark Power, and then Sauron. You can almost see the evil taking shape and revealing itself. Plunging further into geekdom… Sauron means something like “abomination”, so we never hear what his name was before he turned evil – unless it was Abomination, which might explain his bad attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/5 "2003-11-26T23:48:26Z")
The name Sauron is derived from the Quenya _Saur-_ which translates as “Abominable, foul”. In Sindar it is rendered as _Gorthaur_ with similar meaning. (Gor = “horror, dread”, thaur = abominable, foul) Remember, while he _was_ a Maiar of Aulë, he was seduced by Melkor before the making of the world. So he seems to have lost early any positive name for himself. Maybe he was sitting in Barad-dûr demanding his orcs call him _Lissenil_ (“sweet lover”). But if so, tales of this did not seem to reach the ears of the Lords of the West. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/6 "2003-11-27T01:08:59Z")
Nitpick: if not, then how do you know what his name is? Sorry. Anyway, firstly there’s a tradition that naming big bad things can draw their attention (eg. Gandalf is hesitant to read the inscription on the Ring). ---
**Author:** ![Chavardz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@Chavardz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chavardz)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/7 "2003-11-27T03:26:07Z")
Names can often have power when spoken, and the enemy (see I can do it too) is probably alert to mentioning of his name, remember he can see everywhere with that big bada eye, I wonder if he has a big bad ear. Anyway, he has spies, and they must report to him. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/8 "2003-11-27T04:18:14Z")
I thought that it was Sauron who didn’t like to be called “Sauron.” After all, doesn’t Legolas say something to the effect that “Barad-dur does not permit his name to be spoken or written down.” If my name meant “foul abomination,” I wouldn’t be too crazy about it either. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/9 "2003-11-27T05:54:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I thought that it was Sauron who didn’t like to be called “Sauron.” After all, doesn’t Legolas say something to the effect that “Barad-dur does not permit his name to be spoken or written down.” At one time, prior to the events in LOTR, Sauron did not permit his followers to refer to him by name, so that he could recover his strength in secrecy. During this period, which lasted most of the Third Age, he dwelled in Dol Guldur near Mirkwood and was known as “the Necromancer”. It was not until the White Council, lead by Saruman, drove him out of Dol Guldur (at the same time as the events in the Hobbit) that he returned to Mordor and revealed his true identity. Aragorn (not Legolas), who spends most of his time away from civilization, seems to be out of the loop when he makes the above statement. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/10 "2003-11-27T06:36:20Z")
I don’t recall a general taboo against naming Sauron (with one exception, see below), but I’m typing this from a laptop whilst traveling sans Tolkien books, so YMMV. The folk of Gondor don’t name Sauron, and instead call him The Enemy or The Nameless One. IIRC, there’s some verbage in ROTK about how the Gondorians don’t use his name since they live in such close proximity to Mordor. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/11 "2003-11-27T16:28:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shade \* > **Nitpick: if not, then how do you know what his name is?** “Sweet lover” is used as a facetious example. I am not asserting that was his original name. \*\* [/quote] Anyway, firstly there’s a tradition that naming big bad things can draw their attention (eg. Gandalf is hesitant to read the inscription on the Ring). \*\* [/QUOTE] I don’t recall hesitancy here. I do recall Gandalf refraining from using the Black Speech out of what I felt was politeness, rather than fear. It would seem to be on a similar level as showing films of Hitler speeches to concentration camp survivors. But even then Gandalf didn’t hesitate to use it to make his point at the council of Elrond. **Smapti** , Sauron didn’t build Dol Gulder until well into the 3rd age, about 1100 IIRC. And when he revealed himself, he revealed himself as their old foe returned. Based on the etymologic considerations of the origin of the name “Sauron” and his refusal to have his slaves use that name (as documented in LOTR) I doubt he considered “Sauron” his name. That would be my first assumption, rather than that “Aragorn…seems to be out of the loop” as you assert. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/12 "2003-11-27T16:59:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > **"Sweet lover" is used as a facetious example. I am not asserting that was his original name.** I’m not sure if we we’re talking at cross purposes here - just to check, that comment was in response to the OP, not your post. > [@](#): > > I don’t recall hesitancy here. I do recall Gandalf refraining from using the Black Speech out of what I felt was politeness, rather than fear. It would seem to be on a similar level as showing films of Hitler speeches to concentration camp survivors. > > But even then Gandalf didn’t hesitate to use it to make his point at the council of Elrond.\*\* There’s a lot of Tolkien you don’t know if it’s metaphorical or not. And I don’t have my copy here, but there are some quotes along the lines of “There’s only on Lord of the Rings and that’s not Frodo. Be slow to speak that name in this valley.” Enough that while not conclusively definately suggests to me there’s more to it than custom or spies. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/13 "2003-11-27T17:21:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shade \* > **I’m not sure if we we’re talking at cross purposes here - just to check, that comment was in response to the OP, not your post** Gotcha. That was just my basic self-absorption and narcissism coming into play. \*\* > [@](#): > > There’s a lot of Tolkien you don’t know if it’s metaphorical or not. And I don’t have my copy here, but there are some quotes along the lines of “There’s only on Lord of the Rings and that’s not Frodo. Be slow to speak that name in this valley.” Enough that while not conclusively definately suggests to me there’s more to it than custom or spies. \*\* You are correct. Given all the nuances of JRRT’s writings, I think we’re both right! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/14 "2003-11-27T17:24:10Z")
lol. Cool! Its such a good ending to an argument when both people win 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/15 "2003-11-27T19:29:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > **[…] > Maybe he was sitting in Barad-dûr demanding his orcs call him _Lissenil_ (“sweet lover”). > […]** For some reason, an image of “Neverland” flitted through my mind when I read that. Thanks a bunch, **QtM**. OW! Stop hitting me with that glove! OW! ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/16 "2003-11-27T19:32:03Z")
I can’t quite picture the Dark Lord playing “rubba-rubba”. But you never know. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/17 "2003-11-27T21:58:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > **The name Sauron is derived from the Quenya _Saur-_ which translates as “Abominable, foul”.** … Now I’m picturing Sauron as the Abominable Snowman from the old Rudolph the Reindeer holiday special. If only Legolas had sneaked into the Barad-Dur and pulled his teeth, things might have turned out very differently. ---
**Author:** ![tomyoung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@tomyoung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomyoung)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/18 "2003-11-28T04:27:04Z")
Personally, I think Tolkien was just inconsistent. The Mouth of Sauron calls him Sauron: “thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs before Sauron the Great.” But Tolkien was also inconsistent about Moria, which was only called that after it fell into ruin, and certainly not when they were making the door. Maybe Tolkien thought it would be confusing if the MOS referred to him by some nice, new name, so he kept the old, abominable one. ---
**Author:** ![NoCoolUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@NoCoolUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoCoolUserName)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/19 "2003-11-28T07:51:20Z")
{in Rivendell, after Frodo wakes up} > [@](#): > > ‘Hurray!’ cried Pippin, springing up. ‘Here is our noble cousin! Make way for Frodo, Lord of the Ring!’ > ‘Hush!’ said Gandalf from the shadows at the back of the porch. ‘Evil things do not come into this valley; but all the same we should not name them…’ {after the breaking of the Fellowship, at the riverside} > [@](#): > > ‘S is for Sauron,’ said Gimli. ‘That is easy to read.’ > ‘Nay!’ said Legolas. ‘Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.’ > ‘Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken,’ said Aragorn. {In front of the Black Gate} > [@](#): > > ‘So!’ said the Messenger. ‘…this time thou hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the feet of Sauron the Great…’ {and Gandalf later replies} > [@](#): > > ‘…what surety have we that Sauron, the Base Master of Treachery, will keep his part?’ But of course at this point Gandalf is not worried about drawing Sauron’s attention. And maybe the MOS has a special dispensation so that he can use the name. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462/20 "2003-11-28T14:13:19Z")
\<\< There’s a lot of Tolkien you don’t know if it’s metaphorical or not.\>\> Point well taken, **Shade.** It’s actually one of the things that puts Tolkien’s work so far above the other (and later) fantasy writers. Much of the magic is portrayed as “natural” or even metaphorical, and that adds a great depth. BTW, Gandalf’s refusal to use Black Speech is not just out of politeness – he deliberately doesn’t speak it in Hobbiton, for instance, when he’s alone with Frodo and there’s no question of “politeness.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-him-sauron-why/215462.md?page=2)