# "Don't call me 'cisgender'!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903 "2015-04-30T15:23:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/701 "2016-03-24T22:29:47Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > And it is used as part of pejorative speech (“white trash”). . I think \*white trash \*is pejorative also, and should not generally/casually be used on these boards. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/702 "2016-03-24T22:36:28Z")
> [@phantom\_lamb](#): > > And yet I keep repeating myself. It is, and I repeat: > > - Not necessary for most people because we have the words male/female and ‘not a transgender person’ if someone would need clarification The utility of the term “cisgender” has been explained at length. Do you have an actual rebuttal to those explanations? Now would be the time to deploy it. > [@](#): > > - Seen as pejorative by some, including but certainly not limited to myself Which is irrational, because there’s nothing inherently insulting or pejorative in the term. If you disagree, feel free to explain why it’s insulting. If your explanation doesn’t amount to anything more than, “Some people use it as an insult, sometimes!” you will then be required to explain why “Jew” remains an acceptable label, despite a long and widespread history of derogatory usage. > [@](#): > > - Not understood by the general populace. In addition, the fact that I live in a third-world country the term is understood by probably less than 0.001% of the population here Which is irrelevant. Every new term starts off unfamiliar to most people. That changes through regular use. If “Nobody understands that term!” is reason enough to never use a term, we’d all still be speaking Middle English. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/703 "2016-03-24T22:41:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why is her opinion better than yours? You are defending your own usage of this pejorative term. That makes you biased. And you are claiming the term is broadly pejorative without sufficient evidence, so you are biased. For that matter, so is Brynn. With that in mind, why is Brynn’s opinion better than mine, given that she is biased as well on the issue? She presented no more objective “data” than I did. So what is it, because she writes for HuffPo? BFD; I turned down writing for them because they pay slave wages and edit articles in bizarre ways. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/704 "2016-03-24T22:46:59Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > And you are claiming the term is broadly pejorative without sufficient evidence, so you are biased. For that matter, so is Brynn. > > With that in mind, why is Brynn’s opinion better than mine, given that she is biased as well on the issue? She presented no more objective “data” than I did. So what is it, because she writes for HuffPo? BFD; I turned down writing for them because they pay slave wages and edit articles in bizarre ways. How is she biased? Her article seemed well balanced and gave credence to both sides. Did Brynn’s “_It isn’t logically or ethically consistent to tell one group of people that they need to get over a word they dislike being used to describe them while strenuously objecting to a word being applied to you, even if both words can be used in a contextually neutral way_.” sting _that_ much? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/705 "2016-03-24T22:47:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **DrDeth** : > > Not 99% > All > All > Not 99 > Not 99% > Not 99% > Not 99% For what it’s worth, “gentile” does in fact apply to 99% of humanity. More like 99.8%, actually. And I am a gentile. I don’t usually describe myself as that, because it’s usually not relevant. But in the cases where it is relevant, it’s a perfectly reasonable word to use to mean “not Jewish”. And I’ve never heard of anyone claiming that it’s offensive. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/706 "2016-03-24T22:55:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > For what it’s worth, “gentile” does in fact apply to 99% of humanity. More like 99.8%, actually. > > And I am a gentile. I don’t usually describe myself as that, because it’s usually not relevant. But in the cases where it is relevant, it’s a perfectly reasonable word to use to mean “not Jewish”. And I’ve never heard of anyone claiming that it’s offensive. It also means “Not Mormon”. But per wiki: _Modern usage[edit] As in the King James Bible, from the 17th century onward, “gentile” was most commonly used to refer to non-Jews, in the context of European Christian societies with a Jewish minority. So “gentile” commonly meant persons brought up in the Christian faith, as opposed to the adherents of Judaism, and was not typically used to refer to non-Jews in non-Western cultures._ So, in modern usage, a non-western non-Christian would not be called a “gentile”. But yes, in it’s Jewish usage, 99% of the world is gentile. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/707 "2016-03-24T23:24:06Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Where are you meeting all these people who say “white, cisgender heteronormative privilege” in everyday life? I work at a fairly liberal University and I don’t run into people like that but rarely. It’s not like I’m surrounded by people going on about it all the time - but it’s that when things like that do come up, it is never with a positive connotation. ---
**Author:** ![phantom\_lamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@phantom\_lamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phantom_lamb)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/708 "2016-03-25T00:23:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The utility of the term “cisgender” has been explained at length. Do you have an actual rebuttal to those explanations? Now would be the time to deploy it. You might be under the impression that I want to stop you from using the word. I am not. Use it all you like in your conversations if you find it useful. I have no use for it. > [@Miller](#): > > Which is irrational, because there’s nothing inherently insulting or pejorative in the term. If you disagree, feel free to explain why it’s insulting. If your explanation doesn’t amount to anything more than, “Some people use it as an insult, sometimes!” you will then be required to explain why “Jew” remains an acceptable label, despite a long and widespread history of derogatory usage. I honestly don’t know what to say to this. Are you trying to force me into feeling differently about a word that I have developed negative connotations for? I’ve explained why I find it pejorative. I apologize if you find my reasoning doesn’t reach your mighty standards. Besides, MOST words some people find offensive don’t have anything INHERENTLY negative to them. Look at, say, “hipster.” A fairly recent word. it’s not inherently offensive at all. SOME people use it as a pejorative, but not all people. In fact, some people gladly define themselves as hipsters and have no problems with it. But I completely _understand_ if someone takes the word negatively and doesn’t want to be defined as such (even if they seem to fit into that term). I’m not going to demand an explanation that satisfies me enough to give them a pass. Guess I’m just not enough of a bully to be considered a modern-day liberal eh? > [@](#): > > Which is irrelevant. Every new term starts off unfamiliar to most people. That changes through regular use. If “Nobody understands that term!” is reason enough to never use a term, we’d all still be speaking Middle English. Except this one isn’t catching on. The vast majority of people STILL don’t know it. Perhaps that alone speaks to its usefulness in everyday life. Hint: If it were the useful term we’ve all been waiting for, as you claim it to be, it’d have caught on by now. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/709 "2016-03-25T00:29:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > For what it’s worth, “gentile” does in fact apply to 99% of humanity. More like 99.8%, actually. > > And I am a gentile. I don’t usually describe myself as that, because it’s usually not relevant. But in the cases where it is relevant, it’s a perfectly reasonable word to use to mean “not Jewish”. And I’ve never heard of anyone claiming that it’s offensive. This is a good example, because I grew up non Jewish in a very Jewish area, and “gentile” was absolutely a term that was used as a pejorative. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/710 "2016-03-25T01:02:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How is she biased? Her article seemed well balanced and gave credence to both sides. “Seemed” is entirely subjective to you. And I give credence to both sides. I simply find one side wins out - exactly like her. Try again. Eventually something might stick. > [@](#): > > Did Brynn’s “_It isn’t logically or ethically consistent to tell one group of people that they need to get over a word they dislike being used to describe them while strenuously objecting to a word being applied to you, even if both words can be used in a contextually neutral way_.” sting _that_ much? If you can’t discuss a serious subject at a serious level…shrug. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/711 "2016-03-25T01:03:14Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > It’s not like I’m surrounded by people going on about it all the time - but it’s that when things like that do come up, it is never with a positive connotation. The negative connotation of “cisgender heteronormative privilege,” or similar, is in the “normative” and “privilege” parts. Just like the negative connotation of “white supremacy” is in the “supremacy” part. These _are_ negative things, of course it comes across as negative. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/712 "2016-03-25T01:17:00Z")
> [@phantom\_lamb](#): > > You might be under the impression that I want to stop you from using the word. I am not. Great. What’s your purpose in this thread, then? > [@](#): > > I honestly don’t know what to say to this. Are you trying to force me into feeling differently about a word that I have developed negative connotations for? I’ve explained why I find it pejorative. I apologize if you find my reasoning doesn’t reach your mighty standards. Besides, MOST words some people find offensive don’t have anything INHERENTLY negative to them. You’re “reasoning” is that a word, which you admit you hardly ever have heard used at all, has been used in an insulting fashion. Have you considered that, perhaps, the few times you’ve encountered this very rare word do not represent a large enough sample to draw conclusions about its normal usage? In this very, very long thread, dozens of people have been using cisgender in a non-pejorative sense. Does this thread alter your perceptions at all? If not, why do you weight the usage by members of the “asshole brigade” (as you termed them) above the non-asshole usage in this thread? I mean, I’m not trying to “force” you to change your mind, but I’d hope that you’d at least be receptive to new data that might change your preconceptions. If that’s not the case, this may prove to be a very difficult message board for you. I’d also argue that you’re wrong when you say that most words people take offense at are not inherently offensive. Most of the words people take offense at are things like “asshole,” “motherfucker,” “idiot,” “faggot,” “nigger,” and so forth - words that have no positive or neutral connotations, at least when applied to human beings. > [@](#): > > Look at, say, “hipster.” A fairly recent word. it’s not inherently offensive at all. SOME people use it as a pejorative, but not all people. In fact, some people gladly define themselves as hipsters and have no problems with it. But I completely _understand_ if someone takes the word negatively and doesn’t want to be defined as such (even if they seem to fit into that term). I’m not going to demand an explanation that satisfies me enough to give them a pass. Guess I’m just not enough of a bully to be considered a modern-day liberal eh? I don’t necessarily understand why someone would take offense at it. If they mentioned their offense here on the SDMB, in a forum called “Great Debates,” I might ask them to justify their offense. Apparently, this is “liberal bullying” in your book. Since asking you just to defend your position is, in your eyes, some sort of an attack, I’m wondering again, what exactly do you expect out of this thread? > [@](#): > > Except this one isn’t catching on. The vast majority of people STILL don’t know it. Perhaps that alone speaks to its usefulness in everyday life. Hint: If it were the useful term we’ve all been waiting for, as you claim it to be, it’d have caught on by now. You’re aware that the term was first coined in 1998? In German? Yeah, it takes a little while for words to enter the popular lexicon. Particularly words which, as has been emphasized again and again in this thread, are not ones that are necessary for daily usage. “Cisgender” is helpful in the very narrow context of discussing transgender issues. Nobody at all has argued that its something that would be in regular usage, or that people should be required to adopt it as a self-identifier. In 999 out of a thousand interactions, for trans and cis people alike, “man” or “woman” is sufficient identifying information. It’s that thousandth interaction where the term is invaluable. If you don’t care about that thousandth interaction, fine. Great. Bully for you. Since this thread is about that thousandth interaction, I ask once more: Why are you in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/713 "2016-03-25T03:46:25Z")
If someone said “die, Jewish scum” i would take offense. And I’d be intimidated, too. That doesn’t mean the word “Jewish” is typically offensive. I am Jewish, and most Jewish people are comfortable being referred to as Jewish. I will be sad if i have to give up “cis” due to people using it in unpleasant ways. I probably won’t fight for “cis”. I will fight for " Jew" and “Jewish”, which some people (and some software) seen to want to define as offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/714 "2016-03-25T04:45:32Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Alas, i can’t claim that title. ☹ Sex goddess is still available, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/715 "2016-03-25T04:48:13Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > So you’re saying that transgender people cannot be sex gods? Not at all. I’m just reserving that title while it’s in play. Transsexual Sex God might be available, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/716 "2016-03-25T05:23:24Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: This is perhaps not the best way to persuade people that objections to the perfectly cromulent and non-pejorative term “cisgender” are founded on anything more than frivolous obstructionism. > > But having noted that you personally don’t like the term “cisgender” for whatever reason, I’ll do my best to remember not to call you that. I just don’t like the term, and won’t respond to it. That said, I don’t mind if people use it in an academic setting, academics use a lot of objectionable-sounding words when perfectly cromulent ones are available. Take “Caucasian.” My ancestors have not been near the Caucasus mountains for a very long time, neither are they, to the best of my knowledge, asian. I don’t care if it’s used to describe me, but if someone said, “You look caucasian,” to me in casual conversation, an eyebrow might just go up. Same with cisgender. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/717 "2016-03-25T09:02:30Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > The negative connotation of “cisgender heteronormative privilege,” or similar, is in the “normative” and “privilege” parts. Just like the negative connotation of “white supremacy” is in the “supremacy” part. These _are_ negative things, of course it comes across as negative. As I’ve said at least twice already in this thread, the fact I’ve only ever heard the word “Cisgender” used in the context of a negative statement (ie, you’re a white, heterosexual male therefore you’re inherently a bad person or your view is irrelevant) - which is where the negative connotation comes from. As such, it is a term I do not like, do not self-identify with, and do not wish to be described as. And I really don’t think something that applies to 99% of the population can be considered a “privilege”. Driving a car is a privilege. Getting VIP seats at a concert because you’ve got a friend who works at a local radio station is a privilege. Meeting the Queen is a privilege. Identifying with your biological gender and living in a society that assumes everyone identifies with their biological gender isn’t a privilege - you’re not getting some sort of advantage over pretty much everyone else. > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I just don’t like the term, and won’t respond to it. That said, I don’t mind if people use it in an academic setting, academics use a lot of objectionable-sounding words when perfectly cromulent ones are available. Take “Caucasian.” My ancestors have not been near the Caucasus mountains for a very long time, neither are they, to the best of my knowledge, asian. I don’t care if it’s used to describe me, but if someone said, “You look caucasian,” to me in casual conversation, an eyebrow might just go up. Same with cisgender. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/718 "2016-03-25T11:43:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Which is irrational, because there’s nothing inherently insulting or pejorative in the term. If you disagree, feel free to explain why it’s insulting. Out of curiosity, how do you react when folks say _“the Democrat party”_ isn’t the term they prefer? Do you tell them they’re irrational, add that there’s nothing inherently insulting about that word, and say they should feel free to offer up an explanation? Or do you just note their preference and move on? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/719 "2016-03-25T12:25:14Z")
Not comparable, because there’s another equally-descriptive term that means the same thing and which members of that party prefer. What’s the preferred term for “cisgender”? And don’t tell me it’s “normal”, because while I am cisgender, I am most assuredly not normal, and in fact take mild offense at that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/720 "2016-03-25T13:08:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Not comparable, because there’s another equally-descriptive term that means the same thing and which members of that party prefer. What’s the preferred term for “cisgender”? I prefer “non-transgender”. Are there poll results showing which one is more popular? (Or, like, known at all?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903.md?page=37)