# "Don't call me 'cisgender'!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903 "2015-04-30T15:23:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/61 "2015-04-30T20:59:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I can see confused, but why offended? It has no historically bad connotations, it wasn’t created as(or used as) a slur-what is offensive about the word? It’s a term created by a group of people who aren’t me used as a label FOR me against my expressed objections. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/62 "2015-04-30T21:03:26Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well I wouldn’t call myself that, and would be offended if someone called me that. But according to some in this thread I should “just get over it” and not be offended because that’s what other people decided I should be called. THAT’S what I disagree with. Can you tell us more? The purpose of this thread was to ask about why anyone could possibly be offended by such a descriptive and value-free term. The only reason that I can imagine, off the top of my head, is if someone views the cisgendered state as “normal” and by not just using “normal” someone is trying to say that transgendered people are normal too, and they just won’t tolerate that! That’s a pretty bigoted view, so if you’re offended for a reason that’s not bigoted, then could you explain your perspective? > [@brickbacon](#): > > It would be as if wheelchair bound people continually referred to walking people as ambulatory. I don’t know where you get the “continually,” because AFAIK no one uses the term “cisgendered” continually. But ambulatory is a perfectly good word. Let’s suppose you say this: “One thing wheelchair-bound people come across that ambulatory people may not even think about, is…” Don’t you think “ambulatory” is a perfectly good word there? And isn’t it much better than “normal”? That’s a perfect analogy for “cisgendered.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/63 "2015-04-30T21:10:10Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s sort of my point. Lactose intolerant people DIDN’T invent a new term for Lactose tolerant people, it’s just the default. I’ve never heard anyone describe themselves or anyone else for that matter as “Lactose Tolerant” If you are lactose tolerant, you are just normal. Only when you are Lactose intolerant does a distinction need to be made. Oddly, that is a bad example because lactose intolerance is the normal condition, if there is such a thing, for humans. The mutation that makes some folks lactose tolerant in adulthood is relatively recent and is typically found only in populations whose ancestors herded cows for milk products. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/64 "2015-04-30T21:10:36Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It’s a term created by a group of people who aren’t me used as a label FOR me against my expressed objections. Your preferred descriptive term-were you part of the select team that created that label? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/65 "2015-04-30T21:17:04Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > You’d be offended if someone called you “lactose tolerant”? :dubious: > > If you were in a situation where you were talking with someone who was transgendered and you wanted to make a point about your experiences as someone who isn’t transgendered, how would you refer to yourself? > > “As a \_\_\_\_\_\_ male, here’s my opinion.” > > What would you put in that blank? I wouldn’t put anything in the blank. If I was transgendered I would say “As a transgendered male, …” but I’m not so I would just say “As a male,…” why does another label have to be used? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/66 "2015-04-30T21:18:53Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I don’t know where you get the “continually,” because AFAIK no one uses the term “cisgendered” continually. Plenty of people do. In particular, it’s often used to as part of the term “cisgender privilege”. That term is the third auto full-in when you type cisgender. No, I don’t hear the term _everyday_ talking to “cisgender” people, but it comes up fairly regularly in certain circle. > [@CurtC](#): > > IBut ambulatory is a perfectly good word. Let’s suppose you say this: “One thing wheelchair-bound people come across that ambulatory people may not even think about, is…” I agree context matters. However, you were missing my point. There are reasonable contexts for which cisgender makes sense too. However, I think they are few and far between. Further, ambulatory, as a term, doesn’t imply a framework and acceptance of a belief set unlike cisgender/transgender. > [@CurtC](#): > > IAnd isn’t it much better than “normal”? That’s a perfect analogy for “cisgendered.” Well, normal doesn’t really make sense as we are solely describing an ability and a lack of an ability. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/67 "2015-04-30T21:29:29Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So you don’t take other peoples’ feelings about being called certain words into consideration when you determine if they should or should not just “get over it”, only your own personal beliefs on what they should be offended about? I do. It’s just not the only thing I take into consideration. The actual meaning of the word is a big part of it. If a black guy was taking racial offense over being called “niggardly,” I’d say the same thing. Also, my ability to identify with the group being described by the term also factors into it. I’m cisgendered myself. If I don’t find the term offensive, I’m going to be less sympathetic to claims of offense at the term. I’d also factor in the extent to which I perceive the offense to be genuine. A lot of racists like to pretend that they’re just as offended by “honky” as black people are by “nigger.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/68 "2015-04-30T21:30:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I wouldn’t put anything in the blank. If I was transgendered I would say “As a transgendered male, …” but I’m not so I would just say “As a male,…” why does another label have to be used? If you just say “male” how will they know that you’re not transgendered? Transmen use male restrooms, they check the male box on forms, they use masculine pronouns – they’re MEN, like you and me. Saying “I’m male” doesn’t say anything about your trans/cis status. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/69 "2015-04-30T21:36:54Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > If you just say “male” how will they know that you’re not transgendered? > > Transmen use male restrooms, they check the male box on forms, they use masculine pronouns – they’re MEN, like you and me. Saying “I’m male” doesn’t say anything about your trans/cis status. Because if there was some reason for said male to differentiate himself from other males, he would say he was a trans-male. The point is that no one is gonna assume you are in the .015% or so of a given sub group. You have so specify. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/70 "2015-04-30T21:43:24Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Because if there was some reason for said male to differentiate himself from other males, he would say he was a trans-male. The point is that no one is gonna assume you are in the .015% or so of a given sub group. You have so specify. That .015% is if you’re meeting someone at random on the street. But within certain subgroups the percentage can be much higher. For example, in my job I often interact with the indie game scene and run into a LOT of people with non-standard genders. I’m not going to self-identify as “cis-male” to the clerk at 7-11, but I might do so during a meet-and-greet at [IndieCade](http://www.indiecade.com/). ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/71 "2015-04-30T21:44:10Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Because if there was some reason for said male to differentiate himself from other males, he would say he was a trans-male. “One thing that trans-males come across that males may not even think about is…” Sorry, that just doesn’t work. You sometimes need a descriptive word for a male that’s not trans. Cis-male is a perfectly good word for that. What about it offends you? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/72 "2015-04-30T21:44:53Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > No, I think it’s because it’s a term almost solely created by one group that doesn’t really serve a great function, and shifts the framework of understanding towards one side for no particular reason. It’s not too different from when republicans started using “democrat” instead of “democratic” or when celebrities “consciously uncouple” instead of divorce. > > 1. Cisgendered is not a common term, and is going to confuse more people than it helps. It’s clinical and largely not that helpful. Almost all issues surrounding transgenderism are confusing to most people. And I disagree, from personal experience, that it’s not helpful. I’ve found it enormously helpful in discussions of transgender rights, as quoted in the OP. > [@](#): > > 1. Transgender people are like .3% of the population. The reality is that language in common parlance should not serve to characterize the overwhelming majority as a alternative to the characterization of the minority. It would be as if wheelchair bound people continually referred to walking people as ambulatory. Or if people without body dysmorphia were described as “body eumorphic”. Would really make sense to ask for an omnivore menu at a restaurant, or to make a point to mention I’m lactose tolerant? By that logic, the racial categories on the US census should be “Black, Asian, Hispanic, or Person.” > [@](#): > > 1. I think many people reject the term because it reinforces the notion that language should attach and imply privilege to things that are largely not a matter of choice, and are overwhelmingly common place. As if the lack of any and every condition extends privilege which must be acknowledged linguistically. I’m not seeing how privilege attaches to the term “cisgender” in this situation. Can you unpack that some for me? > [@](#): > > 1. It’s kinda bothersome because this type of jargon is slowly creeping into superficial conversations in which such specificity isn’t necessary or illuminating. For example, Facebook apparently has something like 70 gender options. How is that actually helpful to the majority of people? It’s not. It’s helpful to a minority of people. What’s wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/73 "2015-04-30T21:54:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I can see confused, but why offended? It has no historically bad connotations, it wasn’t created as(or used as) a slur-what is offensive about the word? Personally I’ve never heard the word until yesterday and now it appears to be popping up all over the place, being worn on the sleeve by many who seem to using it as some kind of bogus litmus-test. I suspect it is being dangled out there by some in order to manufacture an opportunity to cry “bigot” when others object. I say bullshit to that. I bow to no-one in my acceptance and championing of the LGBT community so I flat-out resent the implication that my discomfort with a term invented on my behalf but without my blessing has any sinister overtones. I think everyone gets to define common terms for their own group. To have them imposed is simply offensive. You can claim neutrality for the word all you want but if the group being labelled doesn’t like it, tough shit. Find another or risk looking like a dick when you insist on using it when it is not welcome. That is a simple common courtesy I rather hope we can extend to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/74 "2015-04-30T21:59:48Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You can claim neutrality for the word all you want but if the group being labelled doesn’t like it, tough shit. What term would you prefer to be used to refer to someone like you? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/75 "2015-04-30T22:02:30Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think everyone gets to define common terms for their own group. To have them imposed is simply offensive. You can claim neutrality for the word all you want but if the group being labelled doesn’t like it, tough shit. Find another or risk looking like a dick when you insist on using it when it is not welcome. That is a simple common courtesy I rather hope we can extend to everyone. Okay. Except that, with one exception, every poster in this thread arguing in favor of the term “cisgender” is, themselves, cisgendered. So, why do you get to be the boss of our group? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/76 "2015-04-30T22:04:38Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Personally I’ve never heard the word until yesterday and now it appears to be popping up all over the place, being worn on the sleeve by many who seem to using it as some kind of bogus litmus-test. Can you give an example of this? I’ve only heard it as a descriptive term when differentiating cisgendered people from transgendered, in talking about transgender issues. I first heard it probably about a year or more ago, and it’s been simply descriptive when I’ve heard it. > [@](#): > > I suspect it is being dangled out there by some in order to manufacture an opportunity to cry “bigot” when others object. I say bullshit to that. But that’s the point of this thread - on what basis do you object to a term that’s completely value-free? > [@](#): > > I think everyone gets to define common terms for their own group. To have them imposed is simply offensive. You can claim neutrality for the word all you want but if the group being labelled doesn’t like it, tough shit. What word would you suggest for the group of people who are not transgender? I’m not, and I think “cisgender” is fine. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/77 "2015-04-30T22:04:38Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > I can’t speak for **Miller** , but yes and no; that is, I wouldn’t ask, but that’s because I would assume that the person believes, or accepted without challenge the belief, that transgender people are abnormal or unnatural or fake. I think this is a very telling set of three words: -abnormal -unnatural -fake If transgendered people aren’t “abnormal” then the word has no meaning. They are different from the norm. 99.7% of people are cisgender (assuming a random stat in this thread is correct). 0.3% are transgender. It is NORMAL to be cisgender. That doesn’t mean that I would use the phrase “normal male” to describe myself in contexts when it might be either offensive or confusing. But “abnormal” does not automatically bring with it value judgments the way “fake” or “unnatural” does. Very very tall people or very very short people or people who can hold their breath for unusually long times are all abnormal. Professional basketball players are abnormal. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/78 "2015-04-30T22:06:31Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I’m not going to self-identify as “cis-male” to the clerk at 7-11, but I might do so during a meet-and-greet at [IndieCade](http://www.indiecade.com/). Okay? Why would you do that, and would it be relevant? > [@CurtC](#): > > “One thing that trans-males come across that males may not even think about is…” > Sorry, that just doesn’t work. You sometimes need a descriptive word for a male that’s not trans. Cis-male is a perfectly good word for that. What about it offends you? Depends on what they rest of the sentence is. And it doesn’t offend me at all. I just think it’s just tiresome PC overcorrection. > [@Miller](#): > > Almost all issues surrounding transgenderism are confusing to most people. And I disagree, from personal experience, that it’s not helpful. I’ve found it enormously helpful in discussions of transgender rights, as quoted in the OP. Okay, so you should use the term then I guess. My thinking it’s not useful and kinda dumb shouldn’t dissuade you from using it if you think it’s helpful. More power to you. > [@Miller](#): > > By that logic, the racial categories on the US census should be “Black, Asian, Hispanic, or Person.” Wrong. On almost all race forms, there is an “other” category for races that are too infrequent to mention. Transgender falls into that category numerically speaking, and isn’t worth basing a naming convention on any more that any other medical condition. > [@Miller](#): > > I’m not seeing how privilege attaches to the term “cisgender” in this situation. Can you unpack that some for me? Not really worth the effort. Google “cisgender privilege”. In short, I think this is where a lot of the resistance to normal comes from. If 99.7% of a thing fits in one category, normal, natural or something similar is an apt descriptor. As someone else mentioned in this thread, are we just at a point where the idea of normalcy in any context is inherently baggage laden? > [@Miller](#): > > It’s not. It’s helpful to a minority of people. What’s wrong with that? Nothing worth getting too riled up over. However, the fact is that every characterization doesn’t have to cater to everyone’s world view. Should a dropbox for nationality include every possible combination of two countries or territories? Of course not. For example, if you went into a restaurant, and they asked you whether you wanted the vegetarian menu, the omnivore menu, the carnivore menu, the lacto-ovo menu, the vegan menu, the macrobiotic menu, the raw vegan menu, or the pescatarian menu, the large font menu, the braille menu, the cruelty-free menu, the etc., etc., I think at a certain point you would wonder why all this specificity and delineation is necessary. At a certain point, you might wonder why the system of limited menus with people specifically noting their deviation from the norm when relevant was a untenable solution. Besides, did you hear me say people shouldn’t use the term? All I said was **I** don’t think it’s particularly useful or logical. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/79 "2015-04-30T22:08:32Z")
Quick followup: as others have mentioned, it depends a lot on context. If I was hanging out with my queer cousin and issues of sexuality came up, I might describe myself as cisgendered, in the types of sentences that have been mentioned in this thread. I would not feel offended or oppressed or PC-policed if I chose to do so. On the other hand, if I were in some normal social interaction, I would presumably describe myself simply as “male”, and then if someone else got all huffy and said that I should check my privilege and refer to myself as a “cisgendered male”, I would think they were being douchey and obnoxious. Fortunately, that has never happened to me, and I doubt it’s happened very often to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/80 "2015-04-30T22:16:40Z")
This is so baffling for me. Cisgender is a handy little word that precisely describes a concept that is pretty complex to describe without it. It’s not something that comes up often, but when discussing gender identity, it saves a lot of needless complexity and talking around stuff. I don’t really care what the actual word is, and if cisgender people want to take up the axe and come up with something they prefer that’s fine. But I’m not typing things like “My transgender friend married a woman-who-was-born-a-woman-and-continues-to-identify-as-a-woman and they faced…blah blah blah and then their man-who-was-born-a-man-and-continues-to-identify-as-a-man friend said…blah blah blah”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903.md?page=5)