# "Don't call me 'cisgender'!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903 "2015-04-30T15:23:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/81 "2015-04-30T22:24:20Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > If you just say “male” how will they know that you’re not transgendered? > > Transmen use male restrooms, they check the male box on forms, they use masculine pronouns – they’re MEN, like you and me. Saying “I’m male” doesn’t say anything about your trans/cis status. And unless you are in a discussion around these issues, maybe that is for the best? The trans-women I know pretty much wanted to be female, not a special category. They announced that someone was now identifying as male at work and would use the men’s restroom, and that was it. He didn’t need a sign saying transmale. He got accepted for what he wanted to be. Perhaps the resentment you are seeing comes from what is perceived as an effort to move a term that is useful in a specialized context into a wider context, and to almost enforce the use of it among those who don’t have contact with that community. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/82 "2015-04-30T22:27:54Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > This is so baffling for me. > > Cisgender is a handy little word that precisely describes a concept that is pretty complex to describe without it. Know what else is a handy little word that precisely describes a male who is not transgendered? Male. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/83 "2015-04-30T22:29:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **MaxTheVool** : > > That doesn’t mean that I would use the phrase “normal male” to describe myself in contexts when it might be either offensive or confusing. But “abnormal” does not automatically bring with it value judgments the way “fake” or “unnatural” does. It really does, though. Think of the brain in _Young Frankenstein_, for instance: We’re clearly not meant to think that it’s abnormally intelligent. And that’s quite unfortunate, because we need a word there (and a corresponding one for “normal”) that has that meaning but without the connotations and value judgements. I have a great many traits. In some of my traits, I am normal, and in others, I am abnormal, while yet other traits have no single variant that’s common enough to be called “normal”. Some of my abnormal traits are ones I’m happy to have, and others are traits I would rather not have, and the same for my normal traits. Likewise, there are a number of traits I possess that I consider largely irrelevant, and would not much care one way or another were they otherwise. Like about 95% of humanity, I am heterosexual, and like over 99% of humanity, I am cisgendered. I am, in these regards, normal. Like about 50% of humanity, I am male. This can be called neither normal nor abnormal. Like about 35% of humanity, I retained lactose tolerance into adulthood. In this regard, I am slightly abnormal. Like about 0.3% of humanity, my body cannot properly regulate intake of dietary iron. In this regard, I am definitely abnormal. One can coin terms for all of these conditions (and there’s another term loaded with connotations it doesn’t deserve, “conditions”), but it’s also useful to have a blanket term that can be applied to any of them. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/84 "2015-04-30T22:29:45Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > If you just say “male” how will they know that you’re not transgendered? > > Transmen use male restrooms, they check the male box on forms, they use masculine pronouns – they’re MEN, like you and me. Saying “I’m male” doesn’t say anything about your trans/cis status. Now you are just fucking with me, right? If I say “transgendered male” that means ‘transgendered’ If I say “Male” that means NOT transgendered. saying “I’m male” says that I’m not transgendered, if i WAS transgendered, I would say “transgendered male” assuming I wanted anyone to know that information. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/85 "2015-04-30T22:30:57Z")
As far as I’m concerned, if you ain’t normal, you may as well be dead. I see the world as cis and deceased. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/86 "2015-04-30T22:33:21Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Okay? Why would you do that, and would it be relevant? Here’s an example. A couple of months ago I was giving a talk at a conference about game design and during the Q&A period someone raised a point that touched on diversity issues. (Which are a big deal in the industry as the result of GamerGate.) When answering it I said something like "Well, speaking as a straight, white, cis guy, that’s not anything I’ve had to deal with personally, but in my opinion yadda, yadda … " It wouldn’t normally self-identify that way, but during a conversation that was explicitly about how having alternate perspectives on a team can affect design choices, it seemed like a useful disclaimer to admit up front that my own perspective is somewhat sheltered/privileged and shouldn’t be taken as gospel. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/87 "2015-04-30T22:34:03Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I think this is a very telling set of three words: > -abnormal > -unnatural > -fake > > If transgendered people aren’t “abnormal” then the word has no meaning. They are different from the norm. 99.7% of people are cisgender (assuming a random stat in this thread is correct). 0.3% are transgender. It is NORMAL to be cisgender. > > That doesn’t mean that I would use the phrase “normal male” to describe myself in contexts when it might be either offensive or confusing. But “abnormal” does not automatically bring with it value judgments the way “fake” or “unnatural” does. Very very tall people or very very short people or people who can hold their breath for unusually long times are all abnormal. Professional basketball players are abnormal. It doesn’t automatically bring a value judgement, but it certainly can. I’m not a huge fan of dictionary cites in these sorts of discussions, but a lot (not all) of them include as part of the definition something along the lines of “…typically in a way that is undesirable or worrying.” If you’re talking to someone who’s gay or transgendered, I can pretty much guarantee you that they’ve been called abnormal by someone who very clearly meant it as an insult. If you want to avoid any ambiguity about where you stand on LGBT rights, it’s probably best to avoid using that particular word, unless you’re very clearly speaking in statistical terms. Otherwise you stand a good chance of being misconstrued. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, if I were in some normal social interaction, I would presumably describe myself simply as “male”, and then if someone else got all huffy and said that I should check my privilege and refer to myself as a “cisgendered male”, I would think they were being douchey and obnoxious. Fortunately, that has never happened to me, and I doubt it’s happened very often to anyone. Anyone doing that is very much an asshole. But, also, very much in the minority among trans people and their allies. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/88 "2015-04-30T22:35:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I do. It’s just not the only thing I take into consideration. The actual meaning of the word is a big part of it. If a black guy was taking racial offense over being called “niggardly,” I’d say the same thing. Also, my ability to identify with the group being described by the term also factors into it. I’m cisgendered myself. If I don’t find the term offensive, I’m going to be less sympathetic to claims of offense at the term. I’d also factor in the extent to which I perceive the offense to be genuine. A lot of racists like to pretend that they’re just as offended by “honky” as black people are by “nigger.” Sorry, but I just don’t believe you would continue to call a black guy “niggardly” if he told you he was offended. Can I use your “Miller’s Equation of Taking Offense” next time I feel the need to call someone a slur that i don’t think is bad? Also, all racists are ignorant morons and I couldn’t care less what they like to pretend to do. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/89 "2015-04-30T22:36:13Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Know what else is a handy little word that precisely describes a male who is not transgendered? Male. That word also describes men who ARE transgendered. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/90 "2015-04-30T22:38:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Anyone doing that is very much an asshole. But, also, very much in the minority among trans people and their allies. What would you call someone who, after being told that the use of the word offended another, told that person to “get over it”? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/91 "2015-04-30T22:39:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That word also describes men who ARE transgendered. Know what other word describes men who ARE transgendered? Transgendered. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/92 "2015-04-30T22:40:15Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > saying “I’m male” says that I’m not transgendered, if i WAS transgendered, I would say “transgendered male” assuming I wanted anyone to know that information. Well, that’s confusing. What if you’re male and you want to tell someone that you’re not transgendered, how would you go about it? Would you just keep saying “I’m male!” louder and louder? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/93 "2015-04-30T22:44:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Now you are just fucking with me, right? If I say “transgendered male” that means ‘transgendered’ If I say “Male” that means NOT transgendered. Here you’ve strayed beyond your opinion and are stating things that are just wrong - they are not how the words are used. A person can be male or female, and can be cis- or trans-. There are four combinations. Just saying you’re “male” often doesn’t convey enough info for a context where you’re talking about gender issues. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/94 "2015-04-30T22:45:30Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sorry, but I just don’t believe you would continue to call a black guy “niggardly” if he told you he was offended. I would avoid using it in personal conversations with that one guy, sure. I would not avoid using the word altogether, or stop using it around black people in general. > [@](#): > > Can I use your “Miller’s Equation of Taking Offense” next time I feel the need to call someone a slur that i don’t think is bad? Not unless you pay me royalties. That shit ain’t free. > [@](#): > > Also, all racists are ignorant morons and I couldn’t care less what they like to pretend to do. Right. I feel more or less the same about people who are transphobic. If a transphobic guy says he’s insulted by being called “cisgendered,” well, fuck that guy. I don’t care how he feels. Which is not to say that everyone who objects to the term is automatically transphobic. But when someone makes a big stink over something as innocuous as “cisgendered,” one thing I’m going to be keeping in mind is that the person may not be coming from a place of total honesty in his objections. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/95 "2015-04-30T22:46:50Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Know what other word describes men who ARE transgendered? Transgendered. Right. And you know what word describes men who AREN’T transgendered? Cisgendered. Shall we go around again? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/96 "2015-04-30T22:47:51Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What would you call someone who, after being told that the use of the word offended another, told that person to “get over it”? I’ve lost track of which word we’re talking about now. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/97 "2015-04-30T23:11:08Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Here you’ve strayed beyond your opinion and are stating things that are just wrong - they are not how the words are used. A person can be male or female, and can be cis- or trans-. There are four combinations. Just saying you’re “male” often doesn’t convey enough info for a context where you’re talking about gender issues. So the confusion comes from a transgendered male identifying as “Male” or “Transgendered Male”. You are saying either are acceptable, which is fine as far as I care, people can say and do whatever they want. However, in order to clear up this confusion, now I have to start calling myself something different than just the standard “Male”? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/98 "2015-04-30T23:14:00Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > No, I think it’s because it’s a term almost solely created by one group that doesn’t really serve a great function, and shifts the framework of understanding towards one side for no particular reason. How you figure? As a cisgender person myself, I think it **does** serve a great function: namely, the very useful function of succinctly identifying the condition or state of “not being transgender” when we’re talking about issues of gender identity. [QUOTE=brickbacon] It’s not too different from when republicans started using “democrat” instead of “democratic” [/quote] Wait, what? Nonsense: of course it’s entirely different. Some Republicans disingenuously use “Democrat” as an adjective instead of the standard form “Democratic”, because they want to deny to Democrats any connotation of being “democratic”. But nobody says “cisgender” as a sneakily disrespectful alternative to a more standard term for non-transgender people. There **isn’t** any standard term for “non-transgender”: that’s why the word “cisgender” was coined in the first place. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Transgender people are like .3% of the population. The reality is that language in common parlance should not serve to characterize the overwhelming majority as a alternative to the characterization of the minority. It would be as if wheelchair bound people continually referred to walking people as ambulatory. Well, when someone’s talking about “walking people” **specifically in the context of their being able to walk rather than use wheelchairs** , why **shouldn’t** they refer to them as “ambulatory”? It’s a much more sensible and unambiguous term than the clumsy expression “walking people”, which could be erroneously interpreted to refer to the subset of ambulatory people who happen to be engaged in walking right now. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Or if people without body dysmorphia were described as “body eumorphic”. Again, **if we’re talking specifically about issues involving body dysmorphic disorder** , it **does** make sense to have a term that designates “not-having-body-dysmorphic-disorder”. Sure, we could just use “not-having-body-dysmorphic-disorder”, but it’s rather long and clumsy, and if some crisper term like “body eumorphic” caught on instead, I don’t see why we should object to it. This kind of back-formation of majority-designating technical terms to parallel minority-designating technical terms happens **all the time** , and I don’t understand why you object to it. Do you object to being called “heterosexual” when the subject of sexual orientation comes up, just because non-heterosexuals are a fairly small minority? Should people discussing developmental disorders stop using the word “neurotypical” to refer to people who don’t have autism (or other developmental disorders), just because non-neurotypical people are also a minority? > [@brickbacon](#): > > It’s kinda bothersome because this type of jargon is slowly creeping into superficial conversations in which such specificity isn’t necessary or illuminating. For example, Facebook apparently has something like 70 gender options. How is that actually helpful to the majority of people? It’s helpful to the majority of people on the rare occasions when they need precise designations to distinguish between various kinds of gender identity. The majority of people can simply go on paying no attention to such terms most of the time, and just look them up on the rare occasions when they encounter or require them. As a paid-up member of Team Neology, I have absolutely no problem with people coining new words whenever they want. If some of them turn out to be useless or too unwieldy, no worries, linguistic natural selection will take care of it and the terms in question will naturally disappear from popular use. I happen to think that’s groovy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/99 "2015-04-30T23:15:08Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > However, in order to clear up this confusion, now I have to start calling myself something different than just the standard “Male”? Where has anyone said that you need to do this? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903/100 "2015-04-30T23:15:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I would avoid using it in personal conversations with that one guy, sure. I would not avoid using the word altogether, or stop using it around black people in general. > > Not unless you pay me royalties. That shit ain’t free. > > Right. I feel more or less the same about people who are transphobic. If a transphobic guy says he’s insulted by being called “cisgendered,” well, fuck that guy. I don’t care how he feels. > > Which is not to say that everyone who objects to the term is automatically transphobic. But when someone makes a big stink over something as innocuous as “cisgendered,” one thing I’m going to be keeping in mind is that the person may not be coming from a place of total honesty in his objections. I’m not sure having a discussion on a message board is considered a “big stink” I simply object to someone telling me “From now on, we are going to call you cisgendered, regardless of how you feel about it. And by the way, unless you are 100% on board with this proclamation, you are transphobic” Whatever transphobic means. Instead of Miller, from now on I’m going to call you PopTart. It’s not a historical slur, hasn’t been used for hatred in the past. Therefore, you have no reason to be offended by it, and must accept everyone calling you PopTart from now on, or you are breakfastpastryphobic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-me-cisgender/718903.md?page=6)