# Don't call us "ladies"! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 23, 2025, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223 "2025-07-23T15:22:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/41 "2025-07-24T19:00:45Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > In the context of this insistence that nobody could possibly address a group of women by starting off with “Good afternoon” unless they were trying to avoid referring to the women – in that specific context, I’m finding your insistence on referring to their gender to be disturbing. In this context, not referring to their gender, or to them personally _is_ the point. I never said anything about it being impossible to refer to them in other ways, but those ways would _also_ be considered “offensive” I’m sure. Something like “good afternoon” in this context is picked because it doesn’t refer to them at all in any way. You can’t not insult people who _want_ to take offense that badly. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/42 "2025-07-24T19:02:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I never said anything about it being impossible to refer to them in other ways, but those ways would _also_ be considered “offensive” I’m sure. Why? Because they all also refer to their gender? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/43 "2025-07-24T19:09:19Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Why? Because they all also refer to their gender? No, because the people in question are just looking for an excuse, and because the alternatives all sound awkward or stupid. Or _are_ genuinely insulting. Do you really think they’d prefer “humans” over “ladies”? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/44 "2025-07-24T19:23:33Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > [@Reply](#): > > > > Well, how do you formally address a group of women? Madams? Y’all? > > > “Ladies,” Perrone wrote in an email to school officials amid contract negotiations. “Good evening! I perused the contract and have three requests.” He went on to ask for annual salary increases, additional vacation days, and additional sick days. The requests amounted to 70 days, or 14 weeks, of paid time off for his first year on the job, and fewer in subsequent years. > > How about this: > > > ~~“Ladies,” Perrone wrote in an email to school officials amid contract negotiations.~~ “Good evening! I perused the contract and have three requests.” He went on to ask for annual salary increases, additional vacation days, and additional sick days. The requests amounted to 70 days, or 14 weeks, of paid time off for his first year on the job, and fewer in subsequent years. > > Easy peasey. I disagree. Although “Ladies” is definitely not the preferred salutation – something like “Dear members of the selection committee” is far better, I’m sure that’s not the reason his job offer was rescinded. I think the following would have been just fine, even if the “ladies” bristled a little: > “Ladies, I perused the contract and I am pleased and honoured to accept your offer." As for gender-neutral greetings, I always recommend “Yo! Wazzup?” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/45 "2025-07-24T21:19:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, I guess “lost his job after he referred to the hiring committee as ‘ladies’” is technically true, in that one event chronologically came after the other. But it’s wholly irresponsible of the newspaper to phrase it in such a misleading way, because it implies, against all evidence, that that was the reason. Right, there is no causation there. > [@Reply](#): > > Well, how do you formally address a group of women? Madams? Y’all? If a mixed group, Ladies and gentlemen is quite proper. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Either New Hampshire is weird, or the US South is weird. I have an uneasy feeling which you guys and, er, females will pick. Not really. It is an unsubstantiated claim. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/46 "2025-07-24T21:32:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not really. It is an unsubstantiated claim. I’ll get a moderator to swear me in with my hand on the Flying Spaghetti Monster comic book. ---
**Author:** ![Jaycat.again](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat.again/32/11525_2.png) [@Jaycat.again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaycat.again)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/47 "2025-07-24T21:47:44Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > “Good afternoon” . . . [is] a greeting which works for people of any gender. Maybe so, bur you might offend “morning people.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/48 "2025-07-24T22:25:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In this context, not referring to their gender, or to them personally _is_ the point. I never said anything about it being impossible to refer to them in other ways, but those ways would _also_ be considered “offensive” I’m sure. Something like “good afternoon” in this context is picked because it doesn’t refer to them at all in any way. I think the concept you’re groping for here is [vocative case,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocative_case) “an expression of direct address by which the identity of the party spoken to is set forth expressly within a sentence”. You are right that forms of direct address like “Ladies and gentlemen”, “Hello everybody”, “My dear colleagues”, etc., contain expressions in the vocative case, whereas forms of direct address like “Hi” and “Good afternoon” do not. But you just confused the issue by incorrectly claiming [in your post #25](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/25) that the difference in those forms of direct address is the difference between talking “to them” and talking “about them indirectly”, without addressing them at all. No: all forms of direct address involve talking directly to the addressees, whether or not a vocative-case expression is included. ---
**Author:** ![Apodder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apodder/32/17727_2.png) [@Apodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apodder)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/49 "2025-07-24T23:39:50Z")
I’m way less concerned about the “Ladies” (which would be fine if the other gender were being represented…“Gentlemen”) than I am about the 14 (!!!) weeks of vacation requested. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/50 "2025-07-24T23:58:25Z")
This made me wonder if he was tailing out another job. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/51 "2025-07-25T00:07:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, because the people in question are just looking for an excuse I think your mind-reading capacities may not be as good as you think they are. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > and because the alternatives all sound awkward or stupid. Or _are_ genuinely insulting. There is nothing awkward, stupid, or insulting about “good afternoon” (or “morning” or “evening” as applicable). You just don’t like it, for reasons that apparently make sense to you but make none to me. There are a batch of other alternatives, depending on the situation. A number of them have been suggested in this thread. Getting back to the OP: I also very much doubt that “ladies” was the problem in that batch of demands. The list of requirements seems designed to get the applicant turned down. Perhaps the person in question was just looking for an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/52 "2025-07-25T00:11:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, I guess “lost his job after he referred to the hiring committee as ‘ladies’” is technically true, in that one event chronologically came after the other. Not according to the judge; he never had a job yet. The committee made him an offer; he replied with a counter-offer. In contract law, that means that a contract had not yet been formed. By making a counter-offer, he was stating that he had not accepted the contract offered by the committee, and was seeking a contract with different terms. The committee would be justified at that point in saying: “We reject your counter-offer. Negotiations are over. Good-bye.” ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/53 "2025-07-25T00:21:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But it’s wholly irresponsible of the newspaper to phrase it in such a misleading way, because it implies, against all evidence, that that was the reason. I’m not so sure that’s a fair characterization. It sounds like his use of “ladies” _contributed_ to the ending of negotiations: > Former School Committee member Cynthia Kwiecinski told her colleagues that she was “insulted” and thought the salutation was “unprofessional and dismissive,” according to court documents. Other members argued that the use of “ladies” was a “microaggression.” Had everything else been in order, perhaps the negotiations would have proceeded even though some people on the committee raised their eyebrows over “ladies.” We’ll never know. As it happens, there were several concerns, of which that was one. Personally, I find the use of “ladies” to strike a mildly distasteful note. I certainly wouldn’t vote to end negotiations for that reason; it’s too trivial to matter and I can easily believe that a perfectly wonderful person might use the term. But if there were a lot of other red flags, I might think, “yeah, and his phrasing could use a little work, too.” I doubt I’d say anything though; I’d focus on the substantive deficiencies. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/54 "2025-07-25T00:31:15Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The committee would be justified at that point in saying: “We reject your counter-offer. Negotiations are over. Good-bye.” That happened to me once. I was very sad. I also knew that that was the chance I took when I countered. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223/55 "2025-07-25T01:26:06Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > By making a counter-offer, he was stating that he had not accepted the contract offered by the committee, and was seeking a contract with different terms. > > The committee would be justified at that point in saying: “We reject your counter-offer. Negotiations are over. Good-bye.” Good points. And they didn’t give any such reason as using “Ladies and Gentlemen”. That was something he made up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-call-us-ladies/1021223.md?page=2)