# Don't close the airport. It's worth billions. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 13, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253 "2009-08-13T03:56:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/1 "2009-08-13T03:56:29Z")
According to [this article](http://www.radioiowa.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=09C0698D-5056-B82A-37DC2BF17C150AE9): > [@](#): > > The [Iowa] state Department of Transportation’s Office of Aviation has released a report that shows the impact of aviation on Iowa. Tim McClung, the planning and outreach manager for the aviation office, says the impact totals $5.4-billion. > > McClung says the direct and indirect impact on the state comes out to 47,000 jobs. Those jobs bring a $2.7-billion payroll. While most people’s exposure to aviation is through flying on commercial airlines, the article says, General Aviation makes up 88% of the aviation activities in the state. In other news, [Rowan County’s [Kentucky] new airport helped facilitate the medical care of an ill four-year-old boy who was care-flighted to Louisville](http://www.themoreheadnews.com/local/local_story_223134044.html). > [@](#): > > The trip by Air Methods full-service air medical transport system would not have been possible at the old airport at Farmers, according to airport board chairman Jim Fluty. But the general aviation 5,500-foot runway at the Morehead-Rowan County Clyde A. Thomas Regional Airport, which can accommodate larger aircraft, allowed the specialized medical care. Some things to think about next time you hear people complaining that the local airport should be closed. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/2 "2009-08-13T04:25:56Z")
I know there are a bunch of little Shriner dudes who fly kids to Shriner hospitals around the country from our little general aviation airport, at no cost to the kids (some of whom are in their thirties, receiving follow-up care) or their families. They do it all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/3 "2009-08-13T04:53:29Z")
Who is complaining the airport should be closed? And why? I’ve never heard of that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/4 "2009-08-13T05:04:21Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Who is complaining the airport should be closed? And why? I’ve never heard of that. It’s a rhetorical device. The first article encompasses all of the airports in Iowa. AFIAK, no one is calling for the specific Kentucky airport to be closed. But people call for GA airports to be closed all the time. There are a lot of people who would not only be happy if Santa Monica Airport, near where I used to live, were to close, but they’re actively campaigning for closure. In the town I live in now, developers managed to close the airport last year. And lest we forget, Da Mayor bulldozed Meigs Field in Chicago in the dead of night like a thief. People buy houses next to airports, and then _shock!_ discover that airplanes fly out of them! Too noisy. Let’s close the airport! Developers see a couple of square miles of real estate and their eyelids go _ka-ching!_ every time they blink. One common refrain in the local editorials a couple of years ago was, ‘Why should we have an airport for Rich Boys’ Toys? We need another truck stop!’ Now, I’ll grant that this particular airport did not generate a lot of revenue. But Santa Monica does. Meigs did. Lots of little airports around the country generate jobs, support small businesses, generate tax revenue, and provide services that would be lacking if they’re closed. But most people don’t think about that. They want quiet, or they want quick money. It’s just nice to read articles that put GA into a positive light once in a while. ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/5 "2009-08-13T06:15:12Z")
A little bit of a hijack. I worked at Seattle Children’s Hospital when they built a beautiful, expensive helipad right outside the ER. The (wealthy) neighborhood surrounding the hospital raised such an uproar, the pad was closed. Now critically ill children who are air-lifted, are flown to the UW soccer field then brought, by ambulance, to the hospital. Thirty minutes to an hour vs 3-5 minutes, to get needed care. But, at least the neighbors aren’t disturbed. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/6 "2009-08-13T06:40:33Z")
I just wanted to post to say - thank you for giving me a reason to look up ‘General aviation’ on wikipedia. I hadn’t come across the term before. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/7 "2009-08-13T07:48:13Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > But people call for GA airports to be closed all the time. Well, my neighborhood doesn’t call for the airport a couple miles south of us to be closed – just that they abide by the legal noise restrictions that are in place, but routinely ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/8 "2009-08-13T08:01:18Z")
> [@picunurse](#): > > A little bit of a hijack. I worked at Seattle Children’s Hospital when they built a beautiful, expensive helipad right outside the ER. > > The (wealthy) neighborhood surrounding the hospital raised such an uproar, the pad was closed. Now critically ill children who are air-lifted, are flown to the UW soccer field then brought, by ambulance, to the hospital. Thirty minutes to an hour vs 3-5 minutes, to get needed care. But, at least the neighbors aren’t disturbed. :dubious: To hijack this again, why doesn’t the Children’s Hospital move. Unfortunately many Children’s hospitals thrive on rich, yuppies who want to over care their children. While they do charity work, some anyway, most of it is outsourced to the poorer community hospitals. Look at Chicago, Children’s Memorial owns some of the most valuable land in upscale Lincoln Park. They are moving the hospital, but where? Streeterville a more upscale and costlier neighborhood. Why not move it to the west side, or NW side where there is a shortage of hospitals overall and VERY, and I mean VERY cheap land. CMH in Chicago could sell off Lincoln Park build a state of art hospital out West right next to the El line and walk away with tons of cash for other things. So why not? Because it wouldn’t last. Children’s Hospitals are notorious for cherry picking and getting the sick kids that make headlines or good copy then shipping out the dead weight. CMH in Chicago left one Yuppie neighborhood for another because that is where the money is. I feel bad for the kids as they are pawns, but the hospital most likely is making out like a victim, when they are not really. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/9 "2009-08-13T08:22:55Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Well, my neighborhood doesn’t call for the airport a couple miles south of us to be closed – just that they abide by the legal noise restrictions that are in place, but routinely ignored. Why should there be noise restrictions? Were the people in the neighbourhood not aware that noisy aeroplanes operate out of airports when they moved next to the airport? I don’t have a big problem with complaints about increased activity at an existing airport but it is common for people to complain about activity that existed before they moved there. Bottom line, if you don’t want to be disrupted by aeroplane noise, don’t move next to an airport. ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/10 "2009-08-13T12:00:02Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > To hijack this again, why doesn’t the Children’s Hospital move. Unfortunately many Children’s hospitals thrive on rich, yuppies who want to over care their children. While they do charity work, some anyway, most of it is outsourced to the poorer community hospitals. > > Look at Chicago, Children’s Memorial owns some of the most valuable land in upscale Lincoln Park. They are moving the hospital, but where? Streeterville a more upscale and costlier neighborhood. Why not move it to the west side, or NW side where there is a shortage of hospitals overall and VERY, and I mean VERY cheap land. CMH in Chicago could sell off Lincoln Park build a state of art hospital out West right next to the El line and walk away with tons of cash for other things. > > So why not? Because it wouldn’t last. Children’s Hospitals are notorious for cherry picking and getting the sick kids that make headlines or good copy then shipping out the dead weight. > > CMH in Chicago left one Yuppie neighborhood for another because that is where the money is. > > I feel bad for the kids as they are pawns, but the hospital most likely is making out like a victim, when they are not really. Seattle Children’s is non-profit. Most of their patients pay according to their ability, or nothing at all. They’ve owned the land they’re on since before the neighbors arrived. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/11 "2009-08-13T14:11:22Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:9, topic:506253”] I don’t have a big problem with complaints about increased activity at an existing airport but it is common for people to complain about activity that existed before they moved there. Bottom line, if you don’t want to be disrupted by aeroplane noise, don’t move next to an airport. [/QUOTE] When Santa Monica Airport was built (as Clover Field) there was nothing out there. Over the years people built closer and closer to it. According to [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Monica_Airport): > [@](#): > > The Santa Monica Airport land grant, which is owned by the City of Santa Monica, was dedicated to aviation uses for one hundred years beginning in 1915. In 2015, the City may close the airport and use the land for some other purpose. ‘Some other purpose’, of course, means housing and business structures. While I agree with your sentiment that people who don’t like airplane noise should not buy houses next to airports, cities and courts seem unsympathetic to this view. Personally, I loved living under SMO’s traffic pattern. SMO is about 20 to 30 minutes from Hollywood, depending on route and traffic. There are a lot of corporations in places like Hollywood, Wilshire, Santa Monica, and so on, for which access to a municipal airport for their corporate travel requirements add value to their bottom line. Closing SMO (to use it as an example) would double or even triple the time it takes them to get to an airplane (more, for West Side corporations). Businesses would need to put their people on commercial airliners, with all of the time-consuming (and thus expensive) procedures that entails; or they would have to shift their operations to LAX, which is already extremely busy and doesn’t really need more airplanes in the system. (Or they’d have to operate out of VNY or BUR, which are 20 to 30 miles away. They’d have to get to their businesses through the Sepulveda Pass, which is often stopped, or take the slow and winding two-lane roads through the Hollywood Hills/Laurel Canyon.) ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/12 "2009-08-13T15:49:44Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > To hijack this again, why doesn’t the Children’s Hospital move. Well, for starters, it’s really, _really_ heavy. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/13 "2009-08-13T16:12:25Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:9, topic:506253”] Why should there be noise restrictions? Were the people in the neighbourhood not aware that noisy aeroplanes operate out of airports when they moved next to the airport? [/QUOTE] It’s still worthwhile to be a good neighbor, not least because it helps prevent close-the-airport movements from getting started. There are plenty of airports around here with operating restrictions in place that a pilot does have to consider reasonable, and no doubt make life easier for the airport’s neighbors - things like climbing to a min altitude before turnout, keeping patterns on the less-populated side of the runway, etc. More often than not, you’ll find a real estate developer behind such efforts, someone with connections to the local political scene, who sees a large open area near town, with utilities already in place, and all it takes is a few phone calls to get the measure moving. ---
**Author:** ![TJVM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@TJVM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TJVM)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/14 "2009-08-13T17:35:44Z")
I tend to be skeptical of these kinds of reports for a number of reasons: 1. The numbers are extremely subject to fudging. If you look at the report itself (report and summary available [here](http://www.iawings.com/airports/Economic%20Impact%20Study%202009.htm)), you see that most of this money consists of “indirect” or “induced” economic activity – jobs and activity that is not directly linked to an airport, but which is presumed to occur down the line (airport worker gets paid, spends his money at the grocery store, the grocery store pays its workers, etc.). This is certainly a real phenomenon, but measuring it is as much art as science, and depends heavily on the specific assumptions you make (does $1.00 spent at an airport generate $1.50 in spending elsewhere, or $1.75, or $3.50?) 2. These “economic boost” numbers are frequently thrown around by groups that are cheerleaders for a particular activity. I don’t know much about the Iowa Office of Aviation, but my guess is that they view their job as promoting aviation. So, I tend to view a report like this the same way I react when a sports team wants $300 million to build a new stadium, but says it’s a great deal for the taxpayers, because they have a report that says the stadium will generate $1 billion in economic activity. 3. I only skimmed the report, but I didn’t see any discussion of aviation costs. Okay, your local government-owned general aviation airport supports 25 jobs and $300,000 in economic activity, or whatever. But how much is the government spending on that airport? If that money was spent on something else, how many jobs and how much economic activity would that other project generate? And, of course, there are indirect costs. If the land surrounding an airport is not suitable for development because of noise, what’s the cost of that? If the airport was built 50 years ago, and is now a great place for a shopping mall, what’s the cost of keeping it as an airport, instead of a shopping mall? None of this is to say that airports aren’t valuable. I just think that reports like this need to be looked at critically, and in conjuction with other information that tends to be omitted. > [@](#): > > Some things to think about next time you hear people complaining that the local airport should be closed. From what I could tell, the report indicated that the vast majority of those billions comes from a small number of commercial (as opposed to general-aviation) airports. Again, I’m not saying that your local municipal airport doesn’t have value, but a general claim that “aviation is worth billions” doesn’t really tell you if a particular small airport is a net benefit or cost to the community. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/15 "2009-08-13T19:31:09Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:9, topic:506253”] Why should there be noise restrictions? Were the people in the neighbourhood not aware that noisy aeroplanes operate out of airports when they moved next to the airport? [/QUOTE] It’s not so much “next door” as “under the flight path”. A friend of mine bought a condo, and later discovered it was under the flight path of the local (but not small) airport. It turns out what she thought was scheduling weirdness on the part of the realtor was really just a ruse to get her to visit the condo only between 3-3:30 when the airport has a brief no-fly period. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/16 "2009-08-13T19:47:09Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > It’s not so much “next door” as “under the flight path”. A friend of mine bought a condo, and later discovered it was under the flight path of the local (but not small) airport. It turns out what she thought was scheduling weirdness on the part of the realtor was really just a ruse to get her to visit the condo only between 3-3:30 when the airport has a brief no-fly period. Our place is right under a flight path of a major airport. About 1.5 from the end of the runway. I could probably hit the jets with a high powered BB gun on a good day. They are that low sometimes. Granted, it aint Atlanta, but we keep busy enough here. Big jets, little jets, many helicopters, military and civilian, and much light avaition and training as well. This stuff just AINT that loud. And I don’t like noise. Yes, I can hear it in the house. I can also hear from inside when a moving truck, the garbage truck, or the fed ex truck go gear shifting by. IMO for every person that is complaining about REAL airport noise, there are 99 others who are the type that would think homeowners associations should have outdoor dress codes. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/17 "2009-08-13T21:04:46Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Our place is right under a flight path of a major airport. About 1.5 from the end of the runway. I could probably hit the jets with a high powered BB gun on a good day. That day would stop being good for you VERY quickly. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/18 "2009-08-13T21:22:34Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > That day would stop being good for you VERY quickly. 😛 You don’t wanna know what I considered doing with model rockets in my younger days 🙂 Fortunately, back then, my poverty and thriftyness overwhelmed my ill advised “wonder if I coulds” ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/19 "2009-08-13T23:19:49Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > It’s not so much “next door” as “under the flight path”. A friend of mine bought a condo, and later discovered it was under the flight path of the local (but not small) airport. It turns out what she thought was scheduling weirdness on the part of the realtor was really just a ruse to get her to visit the condo only between 3-3:30 when the airport has a brief no-fly period. Yeah, I realise this can happen, however it is still the buyers responsibility to make sure they know what they are buying into. It’s certainly not the aircraft operator’s problem that someone didn’t sufficiently check the location of their property before buying it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253/20 "2009-08-14T00:58:20Z")
> [@TJVM](#): > > 1. I only skimmed the report, but I didn’t see any discussion of aviation costs. Okay, your local government-owned general aviation airport supports 25 jobs and $300,000 in economic activity, or whatever. But how much is the government spending on that airport? Why do you assuming the local airport is government-owned? The airport I finished earning my license at is PRIVATELY owned - if it hadn’t been an airport it could have been the owner’s backyard. Or he could have turned it into a “you pick” auto parts junk yard. Or just let it run to weeds. The airport closest to me costs the local government NOTHING. In fact, it has to pay taxes to the local, state, and Federal government just like any other business. Just wanted to clear that up. I’ve flown into and out of a lot of airports as a pilot, and I’d say half of them were private businesses even if they were “public airports”, meaning, open to all comers. The local airport I refer to has a flight school and a repair facility (the latter being more profitable), employs 50+ people even in this recession, and we are happy to have it here, thank you very much, and that’s not just the pilots but also the locals who understand that an operating business shouldn’t be bulldozed simply to make some developers happy building crap condos and strip malls, of which we already have an abundance in this area. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-close-the-airport-its-worth-billions/506253.md?page=2)