# "Don't date or marry a man in hopes that you'll change him" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 31, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391 "2015-03-31T03:01:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/21 "2015-04-01T17:02:45Z")
Depends. He plucks the middle part of his mono brow, now. And he wears the foolproof socks and shirts/ jacket combo’s I bought him. And he wears belts, and let’s me hem trousers so he doesn’t walk around with frayed back edges of his jeans. Each of these changes cost me years of nagging. It’s not worth it, and frankly it has cost me a lot of love that I had to nag so hard for these things. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/22 "2015-04-01T17:08:08Z")
My mother said it more succinctly: Marriage is not a reform school. Both my wife (of 51 years) and I went into marriage with that in mind. ---
**Author:** ![JoshuaSD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f1d935/32.png) [@JoshuaSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoshuaSD)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/23 "2015-04-01T17:10:42Z")
I’m a man who, when my wife and I met 16 years ago was very different than I am now. To some extent I was changing when I met her which is what brought us together in the first place. To some extent her influences after we came together changed me but I would like to believe, and truly do believe that we have both changed each other in many ways. Hopefully for the better. She will tell you that she would not have married me had I not already begun changing by the time we got to that discussion but again I would say the same about her. We had four years together (two living together) before we began discussing marriage. I think it is important that two people grow together first before committing to marriage if they truly intend to stay together. One point to stress is what you are expecting to change. Things that are fundamental to that persons personality probably can’t be changed. If for instance I had wanted to change the fact that my wife spent so much time painting then I feel that would be a fail. Conversely if her intent was to make me stop building stuff that again would be a fail. This in my opinion only goes to support my assertion that you need to grow together first, then commit to a lifelong adventure. Lastly lets put the fine point on this. Much of the implication on this topic is about a habitual failure prior to and during the initial relationship. Those things are probably not going to be things anyone can change other than the person themselves. A cheater is a cheater until he or she decides to not be. Same goes for the habitually unemployed, deadbeat parents and all the other things we would like to change about someone but are very likely to be powerless to do so. Unless that person actually decides to do so completely on their own all we could do to influence it is support them when they are changing and walk away when they choose not to. Sadly I have been in that exact place and had to painfully walk away. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/24 "2015-04-01T18:33:40Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Depends. He plucks the middle part of his mono brow, now. And he wears the foolproof socks and shirts/ jacket combo’s I bought him. And he wears belts, and let’s me hem trousers so he doesn’t walk around with frayed back edges of his jeans. Just checked the back edge of my jeans. Slightly frayed. Never would have dreamed that would bother anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/25 "2015-04-01T18:43:37Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Has it EVER happened? Yes. Not often, but it has happened. JUST often enough to convince female witnesses that it’s possible, and that they can change their boyfriends. > > I don’t say a woman should abandon all hope of changing her man, but I WOULD say to her, “Look at him as he is. ASSUME this is as good as he gets. Could you be happy with him like this?” > > If the answer is no, then leave. If the answer is yes, then if he ever DOES change, it will be a pleasant, unexpected bonus. > > See, the strange thing is, I’ve observed several cases in which a woman married men they thought she could change. After years of marriage, when the men DIDN’T change, the women tended to be infuriated. They felt BETRAYED! They acted as if the man had promised to change, but gone back on their word. But in reality, the men had never made any such pledge, and were totally confused by their wives’ anger! > > To use one hypothetical, if a woman wants kids but her boyfriend says, “I don’t want kids, I will never want kids, I don’t like kids,” she should take him at his word. Yes, there’s a non-zero chance he’ll change some day\*, but that’s a lousy chance to take. If she marries him with the intention of changing his mind, and he DOESN’T change his mind, she’s going to be unfairly livid at him for NOT changing! > > ASSUME that your man is a finished product before deciding whether to marry him. Don’t marry an introvert and think you can change him into your type of social butterfly. Don’t marry an unambitious guy and think you can spur him to be a CEO. > > \*I HAVE known a few guys who were certain they never wanted kids, but who turned out to be great dads who adore their kids. It CAN happen- it’s just a bad idea to count on that happening. Great post. I’d like to add that, IMHO, some men and women go into marriage hoping to change their spouses, and their spouse does indeed change, but they then the change-initiators realize they don’t \*like/want \*that change after all. ---
**Author:** ![Marion\_Wormer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d07c76/32.png) [@Marion\_Wormer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marion_Wormer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/26 "2015-04-01T23:09:15Z")
I once trained a stubborn bull necked 110 lb German Shepherd using a correction collar, a leash, treats and a well organized behavior modification program. If you let me add electric shock, I think I could train a man. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/27 "2015-04-02T00:01:44Z")
I did get my hair cut. Aside from that, we both thought the other was in pretty good shape, and still do after 37 years. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/28 "2015-04-02T13:12:36Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Depends. He plucks the middle part of his mono brow, now. And he wears the foolproof socks and shirts/ jacket combo’s I bought him. And he wears belts, and let’s me hem trousers so he doesn’t walk around with frayed back edges of his jeans. > > Each of these changes cost me years of nagging. > > It’s not worth it, and frankly it has cost me a lot of love that I had to nag so hard for these things. Not worth it to you (and you love him less because you had to nag so much)? Or worth it to him (because he had to put up with years of nagging for shit that didn’t matter)? IMO there is an innocent victim here and/or somebody who victimized themselves. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/29 "2015-04-02T13:22:32Z")
The old joke was that the bride walked down the aisle toward the altar while the organ played a hymn. So she’s thinking “Aisle…altar…hymn” ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/30 "2015-04-02T13:33:05Z")
Starting out with the premise that you can change anyone is flawed. You can’t change people, people change on their own. Sometimes consciously, usually not. Some changes may be instant, some occur gradually over years. If a person wants to change something about themselves to please you, they might. They might not. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/31 "2015-04-02T14:35:30Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Depends. He plucks the middle part of his mono brow, now. And he wears the foolproof socks and shirts/ jacket combo’s I bought him. And he wears belts, and let’s me hem trousers so he doesn’t walk around with frayed back edges of his jeans. > > Each of these changes cost me years of nagging. > > It’s not worth it, and frankly it has cost me a lot of love that I had to nag so hard for these things. Sock type, clothing choices, style, etc. - these all sound like small issues to me, IMHO - i.e., it’s not like someone was alcoholic or a drug addict. ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/32 "2015-04-02T17:12:21Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The old joke was that the bride walked down the aisle toward the altar while the organ played a hymn. So she’s thinking “Aisle…altar…hymn” Or the other old joke about marriage and change: the bride and groom as happy as can be on their honeymoon. The groom thinking: I just got the best blowjob of my life. The bride thinking: I just gave the last blowjob of my life. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/33 "2015-04-02T18:07:51Z")
_ **Never start a marriage with a kidnapping - promise me that…** _ ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/34 "2015-04-05T00:54:03Z")
> [@simster](#): > > _ **Never start a marriage with a kidnapping - promise me that…** _ That’s a tradition in some cultures, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/35 "2015-04-05T02:07:05Z")
People do change, and for the better. It happens all the time. But… real change only comes from within. You cannot force someone else to turn into what you’d prefer them to be. That _never_ happens. I have no idea why “I’ll make him change” is such an [idée fixe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id%C3%A9e_fixe_%28psychology%29) with women, but it really is. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/36 "2015-04-05T02:38:51Z")
I’ll admit it. I made my husband stop shooing away flies with his hand while holding a dirty knife after he flicked food on me more than once. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/37 "2015-04-05T03:15:36Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > But… real change only comes from within. You cannot force someone else to turn into what you’d prefer them to be. That _never_ happens. This is often repeated nonsense. Coca-Cola would not be spending millions of dollars in advertising if change only came from within. People can be influenced, manipulated, and changed into different people. The problem of changing someone in a relationship is that normal people are not professional advertising executives. They are not trained to influence behavior. However, they believe they can change their new spouse. Or they believe that marriage or - much worse - a new child will change their new spouse. This horrible delusional thinking comes mostly from pop-culture media. It comes from movies like Beauty and the Beast, that teach girls that if you love an angry and abusive man that he will change just because you love him. It also comes from a lack of examples of realistic long term marriages in pop-culture. We constantly see stories of the beginnings of a relationship. Nothing is ever said about what happens ten years into a relationship. The result is that we are good at starting amazing relationships but not holding on to them. The rising divorce rate reflects that. This idea that many people have that marriage can change someone just shows that many people have a severe lack of knowledge about long term relationships. People can be changed. But changing people is hard, and often a full-time profession. It’s not a burden that you want to have in a relationship. People do not fail to change others because “change comes from within.” They fail because they believe that changing someone would be as easy as it looks in the movies. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/38 "2015-04-05T10:39:57Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > This is often repeated nonsense. Coca-Cola would not be spending millions of dollars in advertising if change only came from within. People can be influenced, manipulated, and changed into different people. I don’t think that’s what Coca-Cola is doing. They (and the advertising industry as a whole) seem to feel pretty strongly that once people have decided they’re Coke or Pepsi people, getting them to change is impossible. The advertising is targeting the _next_ generation of undecided buyers and trying to get existing customers to drink more. I agree that people can change but it really does have to come from the person. A friend of mine set her sights on a guy who is one of the slimiest people I know. We’d known him for years and seen him bully his wife and kids, cheat on her constantly, and just in general be a douchebag. After the divorce, she was sure she could fix all that. At the time, I told her he seemed more interested in a girl about 15 years younger than him at his office. She scoffed, saying he was into her (she’s long had a problem telling the difference between someone that likes her and someone that wants to screw her). He slept with my friend, treated her like crap, told anyone that would listen everything they did and dumped her. He then began pursuing the 20-something he really liked. Though I couldn’t see the appeal for her, she did indeed start a relationship with him and while he’s still a jerk, he cleaned up his act. It wasn’t that she asked him to change or hoped he’d change, or planned to change him - she just made it clear the womanizing jerk he was didn’t stand a chance and _he_ took the initiative. They’ve been together 15 years now. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/39 "2015-04-05T12:36:52Z")
\*At Wanamaker’s and Saks and Klein’s A lesson I’ve been taught You can’t get alterations on a dress you haven’t bought At any vegetable market from Borneo to Nome You mustn’t squeeze a melon till you get the melon home Marry the man today Give him the girlish laughter Give him your hand today And save the fist for after Carefully expose him to domestic life And if he ever tries to stray from you Have a pot roast Have a headache Have a baby …have two!\* (Really, folks? It took 39 posts to get this in? 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391/40 "2015-04-05T13:51:12Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > she just made it clear the womanizing jerk he was didn’t stand a chance and _he_ took the initiative. They’ve been together 15 years now. I think you are making a meaningless distinction here. The decision to pick up and drink a can of Coca-Cola will always come from inside the person. It cannot work any other way unless I have telekinetic powers or shove a can of Cola down his throat. If you define change this way, by tracking where it physically comes from, then you’ll be right to say that no one can change anyone. But defining change this way ignores how much outside influence there is on people’s behavior. I do not think it matters where we decide change ultimately comes from. Whether it’s from the Coke ad or from the person drinking the soda. What matters is what influences the change. And it’s pretty clear that without Coke ads, a whole lot less people would be drinking coke. That’s what someone who wants a spouse to change wants to know. She does not care about the distinction between her changing her spouse or her behavior ultimately causing the spouse to change from within. All that matters is if there is something she can do that might lead to change. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-date-or-marry-a-man-in-hopes-that-youll-change-him/716391.md?page=3)