# "Don't discuss why religion is bad or problems in black churches in a thread called 'black atheism'" **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [May 20, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486 "2012-05-20T02:40:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/1 "2012-05-20T02:40:58Z")
Really, **tomndebb**? I know you have made a career out of moderating opinions you disagree with out of Great Debates, but this is a little transparent even for you. Would you have warned the author of the article in the OP if he posted it here? You’d have to under your standard of trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/2 "2012-05-20T02:48:31Z")
A link would be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/3 "2012-05-20T03:01:19Z")
[Link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15081162&postcount=48) ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/4 "2012-05-20T03:52:32Z")
What about a link for “a career out of moderating opinions you disagree with out of Great Debates”? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/5 "2012-05-20T04:44:44Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > What about a link for “a career out of moderating opinions you disagree with out of Great Debates”? I don’t know whether that’s the case or not, but i think the OP has a point. In moderating that thread, **tomndebb** said that **Qin Shi Huangdi** and **Condescending Robot** ’s posts were “off topic .” It seems to me that a discussion of the role played by black churches, and of the ways that black churches work, is pretty damn “on topic” in a thread about black atheism. Especially since the OP of that thread specifically quoted a paragraph about black atheists being marginalized and excluded by the rest of the black community. It seems to me that discussing this issue without at least touching on the issue of black churches would be very difficult, and how you can call comments about black churches “off topic” in such a thread is a complete mystery to me. Also, in his moderating, **tomndebb** suggested that those two poster take their comments to another thread, “where i would hope you would provide support for your beliefs.” I was under the impression that it was not, in fact, board policy for moderators to acts as arbiters of evidence and accuracy in Great Debates. They have made quite clear, on a number of occasions, that they’re not going to police the accuracy of claims or request citations on behalf of the board. Doing this stuff is the job of the people involved in the debate. As least, that’s how i’ve always understood board policy. Personally, i have no time for the comments made by **Qin Shi Huangdi** and **Condescending Robot** in that thread. If i were interested in joining the thread, i would definitely be arguing against their assertions. I also tend to agree with **tomndebb** ’s claim that they are venting their prejudices. But that sometimes happens in GD, and they haven’t broken the rules, and they are not, despite his claim, “off topic.” Poor moderation, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/6 "2012-05-20T11:19:41Z")
Neither of the chastised posters made an argument regarding the role of religion in the black community. Both made wholly unsubstantiated attacks on black religious leaders without a shred of supporting evidence and without actually addressing the issue of the role that religion, itself, played in the black community. (Note, for example, that the assertion that the black community is “more religious” than the rest of U.S. society has been both proposed and questioned without drawing any Moderator response. That is a separate assertion from the OP, but is organic to the discussion.) No topic has been ruled off limits. The hijackers were told to take their separate discussion to a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/7 "2012-05-20T12:15:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No topic has been ruled off limits. > The hijackers were told to take their separate discussion to a new thread. But race and religion do get special treatment. At least **Tomndebb** is not the worst of the lot when it comes to selective enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/8 "2012-05-20T15:17:21Z")
I don’t think the posters would’ve gotten away with something like, “All Italian chicks are drama-queens” or “Synagogues are such a money scam, run by self-serving Jewish rabbis” or whatever. At least, I’d hope not. Casting stereotypical/racist generalizations about an ethnic or racial group is mildly tolerated on SDMB (as we’ve seen with the evolution threads), but jeez, if you’re going to act like a jerk, at least be more subtle about it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/9 "2012-05-20T16:30:51Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Neither of the chastised posters made an argument regarding the role of religion in the black community. Are you kidding? You understand that the black churches are fundamentally connected to the role of religion in the black community, don’t you? > [@tomndebb](#): > > That is a separate assertion from the OP, but is organic to the discussion. There was no “assertion” in the OP. There was a link, and a quotation. That’s it. Hell, the thread itself was originally started in MPSIMS, and there was no actual debate proposed for discussion. It was simply offered as something that people might find interesting. Why is it that you get to decide what specific aspects of black religion will be allowed in the discussion? Not only that, but the article linked by the OP of that thread contains the following arguments: > [@](#): > > One of the things that irritates me to no end about black churches is how many of them spread noxious homophobia. Many white churches do the same, of course, but those aren’t the ones preaching to communities being ravaged by HIV and AIDS. To be fair, Al Sharpton has come out against the black church’s anti-gay nonsense before, yet it still persists, supported by pastors who believe the Bible both condemns homosexuality and trumps whatever any mortal like Sharpton says. And: > [@](#): > > What if the thousands of black Americans who follow Creflo Dollar, a multimillionaire megachurch pastor in command of mansions and a Rolls Royce, stopped donating their money and time to him, and instead used those resources to improve their own lives? Seems to me that these touch directly on a couple of the comments made by the posters you were admonishing. Aain, as i said before, i think the comments by those posters were stupid and simplistic and reflective of particular prejudices, but there’s no way they were “off topic” or irrelevant to a discussion of black religiosity. You’re kidding yourself if you think otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/10 "2012-05-20T17:04:02Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > You understand that the black churches are fundamentally connected to the role of religion in the black community, don’t you? I wonder if the comments would have stood had they not been overtly racist and gross generalizations. See Farmer Jane’s post in this thread, or the Stormfront-worthy screed in the thread in question: > [@](#): > > Blacks get it even worse than everyone else from religion. In addition to all the effects it causes in terms of warping one’s morality, making it easier to believe other forms of bullshit, and making you easily manipulable by politicians, the “black pastor” is perhaps the ultimately loathsome parasite in the U.S. Black churches in poor areas take money that people don’t have and use it to support unbelievably lavish lifestyles of people who inherit the positions from their fathers. What “black pastors” do to their communities, poverty-wise, is absolutely disgusting, and they are on the whole the most immoral people I’ve ever met, for this and other reasons. > > … > > The truth hurts. Try working in sales or retail sometime and dealing with a “pastor.” I can forgive the insistence that everyone is “Dr. The Reverend” whatever–the sort of Pokemon-like accumulation of meaningless degrees from intellectually worthless Bible colleges is hardly unique to any racial group within Christianity. But the thing is that even though these “pastors” live high on the hog from what they leech off their communities, they still demand bribes and kickbacks before they will spend church money on anything, and of course they wave their tax-exempt status around on everything they purchase even though most of it is going to personal use. The adulation that big-hat ladies have for these scumsuckers lets them get.away with murder. When thoroughly corrupt con artists holding inherited sinecures are the only leadership your community has, and they’re robbing you besides, it’s worth denouncing strongly. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/11 "2012-05-20T17:24:20Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > I wonder if the comments would have stood had they not been overtly racist and gross generalizations. I guess i could _maybe_ buy that argument if **Der Trihs** had been included in the admonition. Just five minutes before **tomndebb** issued his edict, you’ll find this post: > [@Interesting article on Black Atheism](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/46): > > That pretty much describes religious leaders in general. You hand them money in return for nothing, and the reverends/priests/preachers/whatever spend much of it on themselves and on bigger, shiner churches/temples. > > Religion is a scam; that’s part of the point he’s making. People give them money in return for empty promises about an imaginary afterlife. He’s just claiming that black ministers are worse than average. However, whether they are or not, them being a type of priest automatically makes them scam artists; although unlike most scams, in religion sometimes the scam artist actually believes it himself. He was agreeing with, and furthering, basically the exact argument that was being made by **Condescending Robot**. The only difference was that, instead of applying it specifically to black pastors and churches, he was applying it to all religion. I guess i’d like to know why that doesn’t constitute a similarly unacceptable hijack. The OP of that thread was not, after all, about how shitty religion is, or how much of a scam religion is. It seems to me that **Der Trihs** ’s comments are just as “off topic” as the ones by the other two posters. And i should add that i actually agree with some of **Der Trihs** ’s argument, although, as usual, he is too absolutist and dogmatic about it. But i still think that it was no more or less “off topic,” and no more or less potentially offensive, than the posts by **Condescending Robot** and **Qin Shi Huangdi**. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/12 "2012-05-20T17:28:39Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > And i should add that i actually agree with some of **Der Trihs** ’s argument, although, as usual, he is too absolutist and dogmatic about it. But i still think that it was no more or less “off topic” or potentially offensive than the posts by **Condescending Robot** and **Qin Shi Huangdi**. CLEARLY [I](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15081214&postcount=50) should just be a mod. 😃 > [@Interesting article on Black Atheism](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/50): > > **Der Trihs** , I don’t know why you’re trying to cover for **Condescending Robot** (unless you agree with him), but this thread was originally about black atheists…and somehow got derailed to a) _all black pastors are con artists_, which you have now turned into _all religious organizations are scams, so technically Condescending Robot’s ethnocentric spewing is correct._ We’re used to posters constantly derailing religious threads by claiming all religion is bullshit, a scam, for stupid people, etc. **Der Trihs** has also routinely stated that sending your kid to Sunday School is a form of child abuse. But I hope we never tolerate that…garbage…that **Condescending Robot** was saying. eta: Well, it’s tolerated I guess, but I hope you know what I mean. It was a deliberate hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/13 "2012-05-20T17:46:18Z")
I assume that since it was mod direction–not a warning–that making sure everyone who should have been included in the post was not a priority. Had DT (or anyone) continued on in the same direction _after_ the direction, then I assume a warning would have been applicable. I also think (though I’m admittedly reading into things) that there is a distinction between the blanket _All Religion Is Bad_ type posts and _Crazy Nigger Preachers Are Bad_-type posts. But at its heart, this is an ATMB complaining about well-justified mod direction. No topic was shut down, it was asked to be taken to another thread. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/14 "2012-05-20T17:51:07Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > I assume that since it was mod direction–not a warning–that making sure everyone who should have been included in the post was not a priority. Had DT (or anyone) continued on in the same direction after the direction, then I assume a warning would have been applicable. And yet, just 13 minutes after **tomndebb** ’s post: > [@Interesting article on Black Atheism](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/49): > > And? Many companies and even criminal organizations do “charitable” things to win people over. That doesn’t make it benevolent, that makes it propaganda. I guess he must just have missed it. > [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > I also think (though I’m admittedly reading into things) that there is a distinction between the blanket _All Religion Is Bad_ type posts and _Crazy Nigger Preachers Are Bad_-type posts. The only person to use the word “nigger” in either thread was you, in the post i’ve just quoted. It’s pretty fucking disingenuous to portray those posts in that fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/15 "2012-05-20T18:07:13Z")
Sorry, I’m not going to shift to whether or not DT should/should not have gotten a warning. It’s irrelevant to anything I initially posted. Whether or not CR used “Nigger” or not misses the point. The characterization of the post fits: a blatantly racist, repugnant, diatribe. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/16 "2012-05-20T18:10:10Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > I also think (though I’m admittedly reading into things) that there is a distinction between the blanket _All Religion Is Bad_ type posts and _Crazy Nigger Preachers Are Bad_-type posts. As mhendo pointed out, nobody posted anything as blatently racist as you claimed. Yes, there were posters who were singling out black religious institutions for condemnation. But this was a discussion specifically about black religious institutions. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/17 "2012-05-20T18:12:29Z")
Try reading the second block I quoted above. Racist. ETA: Try this: Jews get it even worse than everyone else from religion. In addition to all the effects it causes in terms of warping one’s morality, making it easier to believe other forms of bullshit, and making you easily manipulable by politicians, the “Jew Rabbi” is perhaps the ultimately loathsome parasite in the U.S. Jew Temples in poor areas take money that people don’t have and use it to support unbelievably lavish lifestyles of people who inherit the positions from their fathers. What “Jew Rabbies” do to their communities, poverty-wise, is absolutely disgusting, and they are on the whole the most immoral people I’ve ever met, for this and other reasons. … The truth hurts. Try working in sales or retail sometime and dealing with a “Rabbi.” I can forgive the insistence that everyone is “Dr. The Reverend” whatever–the sort of Pokemon-like accumulation of meaningless degrees from intellectually worthless Jew-book colleges is hardly unique to any religious group in the world. But the thing is that even though these “rabbis” live high on the hog from what they leech off their communities, they still demand bribes and kickbacks before they will spend Jew money on anything, and of course they wave their tax-exempt status around on everything they purchase even though most of it is going to personal use. The adulation that big-nose ladies have for these scumsuckers lets them get.away with murder. When thoroughly corrupt con artists holding inherited sinecures are the only leadership your community has, and they’re robbing you besides, it’s worth denouncing strongly. Stormfront, plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/18 "2012-05-20T19:14:32Z")
No, Stormfront would be claiming that all blacks or all Jews are corrupt not just black pastors or rabbis. The posts you quoted said that the religious leaders in the black community were preying on the other members of that community. That may be an anti-religious claim but it’s not an anti-black claim. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/19 "2012-05-20T19:28:57Z")
From his posting history,\*\* Qin Shi Huangdi\*\* doesn’t have a problem with Christianity, Jesus, God, or the like. So it would seem that he only has a problem when black pastors are at it. I mean, you know, cause truth hurts, and them danged black pastors keep excusing all those murderers. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486/20 "2012-05-20T20:32:09Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Try reading the second block I quoted above. > > \ > > Stormfront, plain and simple. I’ve read it, and your claim is preposterous. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-discuss-why-religion-is-bad-or-problems-in-black-churches-in-a-thread-called-black-atheism/622486.md?page=2)