# "Don't eat meat," says Pope. Is he right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847 "2015-09-19T21:57:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/21 "2015-09-20T01:48:28Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Animals are capable of suffering. A moral person should, ideally, try to avoid directly causing suffering whenever possible. Why only “directly”? If suffering is bad, why does it matter whether it is caused directly or indirectly? Shouldn’t a moral person try to avoid causing suffering whenever possible, whether directly or indirectly? We needed to kill dozens of squirrels, birds, rats, lizards etc. to construct the mine that provides the coal needed to run your computer and the SDMB servers. Why is that more moral than killing 5 squirrels and eating them? Why does it matter whether the suffering was caused directly or indirectly? And if your morality only requires that people avoid causing suffering directly, then there is nothing morally wrong with most people eating meat. Most people eat purchased from a butchers shop. The animal is already dead when they buy it, therefore they are not directly responsible for that animal’s death, only indirectly. And that’s OK. Right? > [@](#): > > Since it is perfectly possible to live a healthy life without eating meat, a moral person should refrain from eating meat whenever possible. We know that using electricity causes animals to suffer. Since it is possible to live a healthy life without using electricity, then shouldn’t a moral persona also refrain from using electricity whenever possible? I’m sure you dont; just draw the line where it starts to prevent you from doing what you enjoy and living the life that your culture dictates. That wouldn’t be moral. So why do you feel that it is OK to use the internet for enjoyment when that causes animals to suffer, but not OK to eat meat for enjoyment? This morality stuff is really complicated, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/22 "2015-09-20T01:49:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yeah, but you probably won’t see a Quarter-pounder with Levantine Ritual Cannibalism on McDonald’s menu anytime soon 🙂 Not 'til next spring, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/23 "2015-09-20T01:52:12Z")
> [@GoodOmens](#): > > “Fuck off, I like eating meat” is an amoral argument, removed entirely from morality. Why? > [@](#): > > It’s an aesthetic argument for eating meat. Surely you are not arguing that aesthetics can not be the basis of a moral argument, are you? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/24 "2015-09-20T02:17:03Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > The Pope didn’t say that. That guy on the opinion page did and he is loudly crowing that he’ll be watching to see if Francis eats any meat, because presumably if so it’ll prove that the Pope is a hypocrite on the issue of climate change. All according to this one guy in his not very humble opinion. Exactly, and bears repeating. (BTW Francis already runs his life as Pope with a smaller footprint than predecessors, which yes, is still pretty swellegant by whole-humanity standards). The conclusion from the documents is “try and develop a more efficient and ecofriendly food supply” not “the Pope says don’t eat meat at all”. Besides, he’s Argentinian. Arguing against meat would be received back home only slightly better than announcing the Falklands should be British or that Maddonna nailed the Eva Perón role. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/25 "2015-09-20T02:18:04Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Why wouldn’t you consider him an authority on the Roman Catholic Church and its doctrines? [Well, for one thing, because he’s not a **real** Pope!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/26 "2015-09-20T02:19:33Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Besides, he’s Argentinian. Arguing against meat would be received back home only slightly better than announcing the Falklands should be British or that Maddonna nailed the Eva Perón role. . . . Who would the Argentinians have preferred to see cast in an English-language musical/opera about Evita? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/27 "2015-09-20T02:21:19Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yeah, but you probably won’t see a Quarter-pounder with Levantine Ritual Cannibalism on McDonald’s menu anytime soon 🙂 :eek: Don’t give them any ideas! Western civilization is still recovering from the McRib! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/28 "2015-09-20T02:27:01Z")
> [@GoodOmens](#): > > “Fuck off, I like eating meat” is an amoral argument, removed entirely from morality. It’s an aesthetic argument for eating meat. How 'bout this one? All animals are born to die, and might as well die to feed humans as to feed wolves and vultures and bugs and worms. We appreciate the meat more anyway, we have better cooks. Also, if we stop eating meat – or, for that matter, if we switch over to vat-grown clone-meat – then our domestic meat-animal breeds will simply die out, because they can’t survive in the wild and we’re not about to turn them all into pets. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/29 "2015-09-20T02:42:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How 'bout this one? All animals are born to die, and might as well die to feed humans as to feed wolves and vultures and bugs and worms. We appreciate the meat more anyway, we have better cooks. > > Also, if we stop eating meat – or, for that matter, if we switch over to vat-grown clone-meat – then our domestic meat-animal breeds will simply die out, because they can’t survive in the wild and we’re not about to turn them all into pets. I don’t think domestic animals really care about the preservation of their races. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/30 "2015-09-20T03:21:57Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > I don’t think domestic animals really care about the preservation of their races. So you see no moral wrong in exterminating any species,? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/31 "2015-09-20T04:00:32Z")
Every animal dies at some point. I can’t see that’s it causes any more harm if I kill it or if dies of disease or old age or predation by any of the other carnivores out there. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/32 "2015-09-20T04:30:41Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > I don’t think domestic animals really care about the preservation of their races. > [@Blake](#): > > So you see no moral wrong in exterminating any species,? How in the name of hell do you get from point A to point B? That’s one of the wildest leaps of illogic I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/33 "2015-09-20T04:41:43Z")
> [@Wikipedia](#): > > Bruce Friedrich (born August 7, 1969) is Senior Policy Director for Farm Sanctuary.[1] > > Friedrich serves on the advisory board of the Christian Vegetarian Association and is a founding member of the Society of Ethical and Religious Vegetarians. Probably just one guy expressing an opinion that isn’t a big agenda for him, right? > [@JRDelirious](#): > > Besides, he’s Argentinian. Arguing against meat would be received back home only slightly better than announcing the Falklands should be British or that Maddonna nailed the Eva Perón role. Beef in particular. Might as well tell Argentinians not to drink red wine while you’re at it. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/34 "2015-09-20T05:36:52Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > How in the name of hell do you get from point A to point B? That’s one of the wildest leaps of illogic I’ve ever seen. Really. Person A: If humans stop eating meat then our domestic meat-animal lineages will simply die out. that would be immoral Person B: Those lineages don’t care whether they die out, therefore it is unimportant whether they die out. Me: No species aside from humanity cares whether its lineage dies out. So you see no moral problem with letting any species die out. Trinopus: That’s one of the wildest leaps of illogic I’ve ever seen. I can understand how you would be confused. That’s some pretty advanced reasoning in that argument. Incredibly wild. :rolleyes: That’s a pretty wild leap of logic. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/35 "2015-09-20T06:31:03Z")
I suppose if you’re a devout Roman Catholic, it doesn’t matter if the Pope is right or not. You’d obey him, right? ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/36 "2015-09-20T10:00:02Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > It would be a strange moral code which didn’t have “minimise harm” as a founding principle. We can easily go some way toward minimising harm by not eating animals. Of course, raising crops in any sufficient quantity will need severe pest control, killing whole lineages of insects, mice and other ‘vermin’. Now again, I don’t know the precise numbers\*, but the idea that a plant-based diet is free of suffering is simply wrong. Additionally, it’s often basically taken as axiomatic that plants don’t suffer, but there’s no way to actually know this. Indeed, plants show a surprising number of harm avoidance strategies, releasing distress signals (in the form of chemicals rather than screams, but that shouldn’t make a difference in principle), calling for help (black mustard produces a chemical attracting wasps to defend itself against threats), warning one another (acacias, upon being chewed on, release a chemical that makes them taste bitter; additionally, if this is detected by other acacias, they themselves start up the production, as well), and so on. So it’s not all that clear to me that regarding behavioural complexity (which is ultimately all we have to go on), only animals should be attributed with the capacity to suffer; this may be due more to the ease of anthropomorphization than anything else. Ultimately, both the vegetarian and the omnivore draw a line dividing life deserving of protection from life not so deserving; the difference is merely that the vegetarian believes they are objectively right, and the rest of the world should follow their judgment. \*But from a quick google search, [here’s an article](http://theconversation.com/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands-4659) that suggests that 25 times more animals have to be killed per kilogramm of usable protein due to grain farming as opposed to raising livestock. I can’t say I’ve vetted it carefully for accuracy, though. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/37 "2015-09-20T10:20:03Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Really. > > Person A: If humans stop eating meat then our domestic meat-animal lineages will simply die out. that would be immoral > Person B: Those lineages don’t care whether they die out, therefore it is unimportant whether they die out. > Me: No species aside from humanity cares whether its lineage dies out. So you see no moral problem with letting any species die out. > Trinopus: That’s one of the wildest leaps of illogic I’ve ever seen. > I can understand how you would be confused. That’s some pretty advanced reasoning in that argument. Incredibly wild. :rolleyes: > > That’s a pretty wild leap of logic. I think there’s a slight difference between “exterminating” and “stop breeding”… That said, if the question is: “Would it be a moral thing to keep some species from extinction by breeding them in captivity?” my answer would be: only if they can be kept in far better (i.e. more natural) conditions than most livestock in developed countries today. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/38 "2015-09-20T10:31:29Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > I think there’s a slight difference between “exterminating” and “stop breeding”… Care to tell us what that is? > [@](#): > > That said, if the question is: “Would it be a moral thing to keep some species from extinction by breeding them in captivity?” my answer would be: only if they can be kept in far better (i.e. more natural) conditions than most livestock in developed countries today. Why? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/39 "2015-09-20T10:34:18Z")
> [@Nature\_s\_Call](#): > > Article: [What would the Pope eat?](http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/09/16/pope-francis-encyclical-meat-eat-planet-column/31858967/) (USA Today, Bruce Friedrich) > > Breaking it down: climate change is bad and we should treat the poor better. > > Can’t argue with that. > > So stop eating meat. > > Huh? > > Climate change: > [ul] > [li]18% of climate change is attributable to animal agriculture…which is about 40% than all planes, trains, trucks and cars combined.[/li][li]meat creates 52 grams of greenhouse gasses per calorie, 25 times more than legumes[/li][/ul] > Therefore less meat eaten, less greenhouse gasses, less impact on climate. > > The poor: > [ul] > [li]animals must be fed nine calories in feed grains for each calorie the animal turns into meat[/li][/ul] > Therefore stop feeding food to animals and instead feed the poor. > > Of course I don’t hold the Pope as an authority on, well, anything really. But does he have a point here? Assuming the facts check out, this seems a persuasive argument to be vegetarian, or at least severely restrict the amount of meat in my diet. Yes, there’s a point there, whether it is stated by the pope or someone else. There are meats with less impact, such as venison and production with a high rate of grazing on land that would otherwise feed a similar number of wild ruminants, but your average western diet is high in meat raised on feed based on protein sources digestible by humans and on grazing land that would otherwise capture carbon instead of just turning it into cow burps and meat. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/40 "2015-09-20T12:27:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > . . . Who would the Argentinians have preferred to see cast in an English-language musical/opera about Evita? Cindy Lauper. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847.md?page=3)