# "Don't eat meat," says Pope. Is he right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847 "2015-09-19T21:57:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/121 "2015-09-24T17:20:08Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > 1. According to the [Humane Society](http://tinyurl.com/nllrd6v), in 2014 the U.S. meat industry killed: [ul] > > [li] 9,970,000 cows.[/li][li] 2,817,740,000 chickens.[/li][li] 8,491,000 ducks.[/li][li] 35,990,000 hogs.[/li][li] 760,000 lambs.[/li][li] And finally, 72,814,000 turkeys.[/ul][/li] > Giving us a total of two billion, nine hundred and forty five million, seven hundred and sixty five thousand animals killed for our simple enjoyment, give or take, _just in 2014 alone._ > > These animals all eat grain. The number of animals killed in the farming of that grain is simply impossible to calculate. Most animals are not fed exclusively on grain. For example, cattle are grazed or fed silage, then often (but not always) fattened up for a month or more in a feedlot. Feedlots dont only feed grain. Next, feed corn has a yield _ten times_ that of sweet corn. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/122 "2015-09-24T17:45:11Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Firstly, do you think it would be evil if I prevented a child from eating by running at them with screaming with a knife every time they tried to get food? So why do you think it’s not evil to do exactly the same thing to a bird? That would be a fascinatingly astute analogy if flying children routinely migrated thousands of miles and foraged over entire continents. But since they don’t, it’s a completely useless analogy. > [@Blake](#): > > Secondly, do you really think that a vineyard frightens away caterpillars and gophers? No, they [kill them](https://www.audubon.org/magazine/january-february-2013/poisons-used-kill-rodents-have-safer). Isn’t that causing suffering? > > You visited a vineyard, presumably on a tour. You seem to have limited experience on how vineyards actually operate. Nobody is going to be out shooting and poisoning birds and mammals when a tour group visits. but they sure do it when you aren’t there. Not “on a tour”. I visit wineries to taste and buy wine and speak with the staff and often the owners and winemakers. Birds are a big problem in Ontario vineyards. If they aren’t scared off by various repellent devices, the losses of some varieties of grapes by harvest time would be 100%. If they’re scared off, they forage elsewhere and seem to survive just fine. Groundhogs and other pests seem to be a much bigger problem in California than here, but regardless, if they’re controlled with predators like owls or other humane methods I don’t see a problem. If you’re trying to make the case that rodent control is somehow morally the same as raising livestock in horrible, inhumane conditions so they can be slaughtered for our culinary pleasures, then you’re not making an argument at a level of rationality that I care to participate in. Vineyards in my experience are, in both appearance and fact, as harmonious with nature as a large-scale enterprise can ever be, their proprietors often conscientious environmentalists, and they are often wonderful assets to countrysides that are already rich in natural beauty. If you think there’s any sort of rational comparison to be made with industrial cattle farms or slaughterhouses, suit yourself. > [@Blake](#): > > All this illustrates my point perfectly. You don’t have a point, as far as I can tell. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t think one can support a blanket assertion against eating meat. But I think you can make a good case against factory-farm meat. Those animals live in unnatural and often unpleasant conditions (more so for veal, pork, and chicken than for beef and lamb) and are fed crops raised on land that could produce more calories for human if used directly to grow vegetable-based foods than the resulting calories of the meat. [Here’s a story](http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/more-certified-humane-pork-pledged-by-quebec-s-dubreton-1.3240695) that just came out today. An independent family-owned pork producer talks about his commitment to a niche but growing market for organic pork from naturally fed and humanely raised pigs, in accordance with the Certified Humane Raised and Handled standards of the [Humane Farm Animal Care](http://certifiedhumane.org/) organization and other US and Canadian standards. The pens are almost 6 times bigger than they are in industrial farms, “pigs have freedom of movement, have hay underfoot instead of metal slats and can engage in natural behaviours such as playing and rooting. There is also a higher standard for air quality in barns where they are raised.” So I agree, there’s definitely a middle ground between outright vegetarianism and being completely uncaring. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/123 "2015-09-24T20:08:07Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Actually, just to cut through the crap. Tell us whether you dispute any of the following points: > > 1. [Typical production methods for annual crops such as wheat or soybeans results in the death of multiple wild animals wild animals.](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/000632079390060E) . . . The same is true for opening up grazing land. Cattle step on lizards, chase birds from their nests, and so on. A cattle ranch is no less ecologically intrusive than a wheat-field. Opening a region to cattle results in as many deaths as the wheat field does. So, no, you haven’t proven your point. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/124 "2015-09-24T20:21:02Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > [Here’s a story](http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/more-certified-humane-pork-pledged-by-quebec-s-dubreton-1.3240695) that just came out today. An independent family-owned pork producer talks about his commitment to a niche but growing market for organic pork from naturally fed and humanely raised pigs, in accordance with the Certified Humane Raised and Handled standards of the [Humane Farm Animal Care](http://certifiedhumane.org/) organization and other US and Canadian standards. The pens are almost 6 times bigger than they are in industrial farms, “pigs have freedom of movement, have hay underfoot instead of metal slats and can engage in natural behaviours such as playing and rooting. There is also a higher standard for air quality in barns where they are raised.” > > So I agree, there’s definitely a middle ground between outright vegetarianism and being completely uncaring. And, having eaten both factory raised pork and chicken, and pastured pork and chicken, the animals that can walk around and root and otherwise act normally, and eat a variety of food, are tougher but a lot tastier than their caged counterparts. (Larger pens may not affect the flavor. But I feel a lot better about eating an animal that got to live a decent life.) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/125 "2015-09-24T21:09:43Z")
Somehow, “Don’t eat meat” doesn’t have much pizzazz to it. I miss the earlier Pope (John Paul Something-or-Other) who had better advice, especially for our young people (“Don’t smoke dope. Don’t screw around.”). > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Are you named for the clemetis? Yes, or vice versa. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/126 "2015-09-24T22:23:43Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The same is true for opening up grazing land. Cattle step on lizards, chase birds from their nests, and so on. A cattle ranch is no less ecologically intrusive than a wheat-field. Opening a region to cattle results in as many deaths as the wheat field does. > > So, no, you haven’t proven your point. Nope, cattle are grazers and graze happliy on native grasses- of which there could be hundreds of species. They take the niche of the bison. Wheat is a mono-crop, one plant growing over thousands of acres. Everything else is killed. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/127 "2015-09-25T01:44:16Z")
Well…okay. Sheep. Sheep kill every plant in the pasture. Every single goddamn plant. Where sheep are penned, you see bare dirt and nothing else. At all. So…cattle are okay (kinda) but sheep are as bad as wheat. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/128 "2015-09-25T01:48:55Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well…okay. Sheep. Sheep kill every plant in the pasture. Every single goddamn plant. Where sheep are penned, you see bare dirt and nothing else. At all. > > So…cattle are okay (kinda) but sheep are as bad as wheat. True, so don’t pen them, just let them graze in a pasture. I admit we could & should make some much needed adjustments to our meat eating- eat less meat, less feedlot fattening, letting animals graze more, no over-grazing, feeding more waste and silage- less grain. No everyday use of antibiotics. All this would make for happier animals, a better environment and meat that is actually better for us to eat- not to mention tastier. So- reforms- YES! Banning meat- NO! ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/129 "2015-09-25T13:07:18Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well…okay. Sheep. Sheep kill every plant in the pasture. Every single goddamn plant. Where sheep are penned, you see bare dirt and nothing else. At all. > > So…cattle are okay (kinda) but sheep are as bad as wheat. Visit Ireland. There are sheep everywhere, and plenty of grass. If they have enough space, and there is enough water, they don’t kill all the vegetation. Irish lamb is delicious, by the way. Almost as good as Icelandic. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847/130 "2015-09-25T15:51:59Z")
The Pope is probably right but I just can’t bring myself to stop eating this delicious hot dog… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-eat-meat-says-pope-is-he-right/731847.md?page=6)