# Don't even try to tell us it's not plagiarized!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [March 9, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903 "2010-03-09T21:01:29Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 18
### Author:  [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/341 "2010-10-07T15:04:40Z")
> [@mhendo](#):
>
> If you think that college consists of pointless hoop-jumping, then don’t go. When you go, however, you agree to abide by the standards set by the institution.
Of course I agree to \*abide by \*them–and I did, as evidenced by the fact that I hold an Honors BA in English Literature with a minor in Computer Science. I did not, however, agree to \*like \*the standards. I am saying the standards are _crap_. If you say you don’t understand this distinction, you’re either being disingenuous or you’re a lot stupider than you look.
> [@](#):
>
> It may surprise you to know this, but the people who design the courses taken by undergraduates actually know a little bit about the topic.
I never would have figured this out if you hadn’t told me. I certainly don’t have any friends who have PhDs. I certainly didn’t have any professers during my undergraduate work who liked me enough to spend time with me outside of lectures. :rolleyes:
> [@](#):
>
> So why did you enroll? Oh yeah, because you wanted the fancy little piece of paper that tells the world that you’ve done it. Well, if that’s want you want, then you need to follow the requirements of the people who know more about your subject than you do. Is that harder? Yes. Tough shit.
And more pointless whining. None of this demonstrates why it’s \*useful \*or \*important \*to not allow a student to use the same piece of their own work for two different purposes. Your entire reasoning is “because I said so.”
These days, a Bachelor’s is pretty pointless. The entire purpose of having one is to have one. 99% of the things you can do with a B.A. or a B.S. don’t care what it’s in or which institution it’s from–they just want you to have one. And in order to get it, you need to complete a certain number of credits in various subjects. It doesn’t matter how much you already know about them–the hoops must be jumped. If you can set yourself up to jump two hoops at once, why are you punished for doing so? Shouldn’t the blame rather lie at the feet of those who made it possible to line the hoops up?
FWIW, I can’t think of a single time I re-used a paper for another class. The closest I came was reworking something I wrote as blogprov for an assignment in a creative writing class, and I told the professor that that had been my starting point.
> [@](#):
>
> But if academia is, in fact, turning into pointless hoop-jumping and silly rules and regulations, one of the causes is whiny bitch undergraduate students who think they already know more than their professors, who just want to be told what The Right Answer is, who want the degree without doing any actual work in order to get it, and who expect every class they take to be as entertaining, and as challenging to their intellect, as an episode of Glee.
Clearly, this is an accurate description of me. You know me \*so \*much better than all of the professors who loved having me as a student and talked me up to their peers.
> [@Kolga](#):
>
> However, both of those situations require a sit-down with me so that we can go over how to make sure that the resulting work meets the requirements of the assignment. For example, a student who writes a paper about gender development for my Developmental Psychology class can certain also wrote about gender development for my Social Psychology class, but obviously the focus for those papers is going to have to be different, in that the expectation is that the student is going to write about the concepts that are particular to that specific class. A student wouldn’t be able to completely recycle a paper, word for word, with no updates or rewrites to change the focus.
See, this is a completely reasonable position. The paper should stand \*on its own merits \*as it meets the requirements of the course, regardless of where it was used before. If a student is stupid enough to try to shoehorn something in that doesn’t really fit just to avoid doing extra work, then by all means they should receive the appropriate grade. But if they can find something they’d done previously that fits the bill, they should be able to resubmit it with as much or as little rework as they see fit, without the worry that the only consideration will be whether or not it had been used for anything else before.
---
### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/342 "2010-10-07T15:27:43Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> Clearly, this is an accurate description of me. You know me \*so \*much better than all of the professors who loved having me as a student and talked me up to their peers.
Oops. Didn’t mean to strike a nerve.
I never said it was you. I was simply pointing out that, to the extent that modern university classes are dumbed-down or hoop-jumping, it’s largely due to pressure from the students (sorry, clients) themselves.
Methinks you do protest somewhat too much about what an awesome student you were. I’m sure you were so great they wished you were on the faculty with them.
---
### Author:  [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/343 "2010-10-07T16:41:55Z")
Yes, I’m sure you \*regularly \*make blanket statements in reply to people that are in \*no way \*intended to apply to them. \*Do \*let me know how it works out the next time you end a post with, “Some people on this board are total cunts.”
My point is not to brag. My point is to demonstrate that you are completely wrong about your assumptions of what kind of student I have been. That it comes off as bragging is only because I am, and continue to be, fairly awesome. It may be arrogant to say so, but it is also accurate and relevant to the discussion we’re having.
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/344 "2010-10-07T18:56:17Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> Yes, I’m sure you \*regularly \*make blanket statements in reply to people that are in \*no way \*intended to apply to them. \*Do \*let me know how it works out the next time you end a post with, “Some people on this board are total cunts.”
Well, some people on this board do appear to be total retards. You among them. There, is that specific enough for you?
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> My point is not to brag. My point is to demonstrate that you are completely wrong about your assumptions of what kind of student I have been.
I make no assumptions about that. In my experience as a teacher, is it perfectly possible for someone to be an excellent student _and_ a complete douchebag who thinks he or she knows everything.
---
### Author:  [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/345 "2010-10-07T19:23:52Z")
> [@mhendo](#):
>
> Well, some people on this board do appear to be total retards. You among them. There, is that specific enough for you?
Ah, so you admit that you weren’t being accurate when you said that your blanket statement wasn’t meant to apply to me?
> [@](#):
>
> I make no assumptions about that. In my experience as a teacher, is it perfectly possible for someone to be an excellent student _and_ a complete douchebag who thinks he or she knows everything.
Yes, but generally you won’t spend any time on those students outside of lecture, contract with them for extra work outside the scope of the course, or talk them up to your colleagues, unless you’re a masochist or an idiot, which I doubt you are or my professors were.
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/346 "2010-10-07T20:15:27Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> Ah, so you admit that you weren’t being accurate when you said that your blanket statement wasn’t meant to apply to me?
Incorrect. Again.
You’re a retard because you were unable to work out that a comment about the prevalence of undergrads uninterested in intellectual rigor was _not_, in fact, directed at you.
I’m sure you’re just the person academia needs to solve all its problem, and that there will be a collective sigh of gratitude if and when you decide to apply for a grad program and grace the profession with your brilliance.
---
### Author:  [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/347 "2010-10-08T14:17:06Z")
> [@mhendo](#):
>
> You’re a retard because you were unable to work out that a comment about the prevalence of undergrads uninterested in intellectual rigor was _not_, in fact, directed at you.
Puh-lease. You’re just the next in a long line of people without the chutzpah to say what they mean, so they couch it as a general statement that just happens to appear in my vicinity, and then just happen to say, “Gee, since you think it applies to you, it must!” when I take offense. Next time, grow up and say it to my face like an adult, or apologize for casting unrelated aspersions in my direction such that they could reasonably be thought to apply to me.
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### Author:  [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/348 "2010-10-08T14:49:23Z")
> [@mhendo](#):
>
> > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
> >
> > The same thing applies to requiring attendance at lectures: if you want me to show up, give me a reason to be there. If I can pass the class without seeing you outside of exams, that’s not my fault.
>
> For classes that are purely lecture-based, i sort of agree. If you want to skip lectures, and you think you can get by, that’s fine. But i don’t teach any classes that are lecture-only. The size of my classes, and the nature of my courses, mean that all of my classes combine lecturing and class discussion. And the discussion itself is not simply a means to pass an exam; it is an integral part of the process. So if i only see you at exams, you cannot pass the course, by definition, because you haven’t done the things that passing requires.
and
> [@mhendo](#):
>
> If you can pass the exams without ever turning up to class, why go at all? Your local public library probably has all the books you need to read about the subject of your choice. Plenty of university professors have their syllabi listed online, so you could even find out with a simple Google search what readings they are choosing for their classes, and go ahead and find them for yourself. There’s absolutely no need to go to class; and there’s not even any need to enroll in the university in the first place.
makes me wonder again just how college and/or universities are structured in the US when compared to our universities. Not only are the standards apparently all over the map, college in the US at least seems to correspond to the last High School years over here, with all the hand-holding of students and small classes and general education and teaching students how to learn… that’s what our Abitur shows.
It seems from mhendo’s posts that both colleges and universities in the US have only classes (I assume these are the classes which are limited to 13/15/17 students for private, expensive institutions, as mentioned in the brochures?), and your grade is based (like High School) on the essays you write very very often for class.
Because that doesn’t sound like a normal University to me, sorry. Here, while beginning students do have to learn the stricter and more challenging how-tos of academic work, they certainly don’t have to turn in papers every week or two weeks. (The profs. also have something better to do with their time).
There are the classic front-type lectures, where several hundred students may sit in a big auditorium; attendance for these is not mandatory, because the Prof. himself may fob this off to an assistant. The Prof. may also not be a gifted lecturer, mumbling, talking too fast, without clear diagrams … so one enterprising student takes good notes, and sells these notes afterward to the students who didn’t show up. Or (today) you look the lecture up on you-tube or live stream (sometimes done by the Profs themselves, for big-name Profs., or general-interest topics, so people from all over the world can watch a lecture.
To get a grade there, you need to learn the stuff, not show up, and pass the exam at the end of the semester.
Additionally, you sign up for special courses. These will be limited attendance only, so if you sign up as the 15th person for a 14 person course, you will have to wait till the next one is offered (which might be in 6 months, next semester, depending on how many assistants have time left). In these small courses, you give oral presentations and get feedback from the teacher and fellow students, to learn how to properly present your findings, and you have classroom discussions, to learn how to properly defend a theory with evidence. The presentations and papers and participation are graded, and enable you to learn and improve.
Third are the excursions and practical exercises, e.g. interpreting aeral photography, building 3d models from 2d maps, doing door-to-door questions of how people live, taking readings and investigating a glacier-formed lake (all those for areas of geography/geology). Again, you are graded on your work and you learn practical skill.
How do US college/ university students learn these things?
---
### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/349 "2010-10-08T16:15:22Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> Puh-lease. You’re just the next in a long line of people without the chutzpah to say what they mean, so they couch it as a general statement that just happens to appear in my vicinity, and then just happen to say, “Gee, since you think it applies to you, it must!” when I take offense. Next time, grow up and say it to my face like an adult, or apologize for casting unrelated aspersions in my direction such that they could reasonably be thought to apply to me.
Yeah, that’s what it is. :rolleyes:
Look, i’ll happily call you a moron, a douchebag, and stupid fucking bint, and anything else that takes my fancy. I’ve already called you a retard in this thread. It’s not like insulting you is a difficult thing to do; you make it so fucking easy. If i had meant you in that statement, i would have said so. Believe me. Get over yourself.
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### Author:  [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/350 "2010-10-08T16:21:22Z")
@ **constanze** :
Here’s how things worked at my university:
Class sizes varied. Big honkin’ freshman-level classes could easily contain a couple of hundred students; Honors Program seminars would often have fewer than a dozen of us. Most classes would have around 30 students. Generally speaking, the more specialized a class was, the smaller it would be; the more majors a course was required for, the more people would take it. My university was middle-sized; there were, I think, about 11,000 undergrads.
Officially, you could miss no more than two weeks worth of lectures for any class or you would be failed with the designation WA: “withdrawn due to excessive absences.” For a class that met three times a week, you were allowed up to six absences; for a class that met only two, you were allowed four. Attending lectures didn’t help your grade at all; but missing too many classes would fail you, regardless of the rest of your performance, if the professor reported it. (Example: The only class I failed in college was one where I missed too many lectures; I retook it the next semester and earned an A.) In practice, no one took attendance for the large lectures, and some professors didn’t bother to track who showed up to their classes, rather caring about your actual work and participation.
Class requirements varied. Usually, you were graded on some combination of participation in discussion, exams, and papers/projects. You would also be assigned reading, though there was usually no way of grading this specifically; occasionally, you’d have a professor who would give quizzes on a weekly basis, which would sometimes affect your grade in a small way. The only area where I can recall being assigned regular homework outside of reading was in my Japanese language courses.
There was very rarely the kind of daily homework that one would get in high school, which is what you seem to be envisioning, outside of having reading assigned to have completed before the next lecture so you’d be prepared for the material to be covered.
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/351 "2010-10-08T16:26:18Z")
> [@constanze](#):
>
> college in the US at least seems to correspond to the last High School years over here, with all the hand-holding of students and small classes and general education and teaching students how to learn… that’s what our Abitur shows.
Where the hell did you get the impression of hand-holding? Or small classes, for that matter.
Freshman survey courses in large US universities often contain hundreds of people. A friend of mine teaches at the University of Texas at Austin, and she lectures to theaters of 500 students at a time for her survey classes. And while most of the top tier schools do focus a fair bit of effort on student advising, it’s not hand-holding. Students do the work, or they don’t. If they don’t do it, they don’t pass. My classes had papers due this week. Some students didn’t hand their papers in, and i’m not chasing after them; they’re grownups, and if they don’t want to do the work, that’s their business.
> [@constanze](#):
>
> It seems from mhendo’s posts that both colleges and universities in the US have only classes (I assume these are the classes which are limited to 13/15/17 students for private, expensive institutions, as mentioned in the brochures?), and your grade is based (like High School) on the essays you write very very often for class.
I literally have no idea how you got that from my posts. The history class i’m teaching this semester requires two essays— a short one and a longer one—and two exams.
> [@constanze](#):
>
> Because that doesn’t sound like a normal University to me, sorry. Here, while beginning students do have to learn the stricter and more challenging how-tos of academic work, they certainly don’t have to turn in papers every week or two weeks. (The profs. also have something better to do with their time).
>
> There are the classic front-type lectures, where several hundred students may sit in a big auditorium; attendance for these is not mandatory, because the Prof. himself may fob this off to an assistant. The Prof. may also not be a gifted lecturer, mumbling, talking too fast, without clear diagrams … so one enterprising student takes good notes, and sells these notes afterward to the students who didn’t show up. Or (today) you look the lecture up on you-tube or live stream (sometimes done by the Profs themselves, for big-name Profs., or general-interest topics, so people from all over the world can watch a lecture.
>
> To get a grade there, you need to learn the stuff, not show up, and pass the exam at the end of the semester.
>
> Additionally, you sign up for special courses. These will be limited attendance only, so if you sign up as the 15th person for a 14 person course, you will have to wait till the next one is offered (which might be in 6 months, next semester, depending on how many assistants have time left). In these small courses, you give oral presentations and get feedback from the teacher and fellow students, to learn how to properly present your findings, and you have classroom discussions, to learn how to properly defend a theory with evidence. The presentations and papers and participation are graded, and enable you to learn and improve.
>
> Third are the excursions and practical exercises, e.g. interpreting aeral photography, building 3d models from 2d maps, doing door-to-door questions of how people live, taking readings and investigating a glacier-formed lake (all those for areas of geography/geology). Again, you are graded on your work and you learn practical skill.
>
> How do US college/ university students learn these things?
It works in a very similar way in the US. I’m not sure how or why you got any other impression.
---
### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/352 "2010-10-08T16:32:18Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> Class sizes varied. Big honkin’ freshman-level classes could easily contain a couple of hundred students.
>
> \
>
> Officially, you could miss no more than two weeks worth of lectures for any class or you would be failed with the designation WA: “withdrawn due to excessive absences.”
>
> \
>
> (Example: The only class I failed in college was one where I missed too many lectures; I retook it the next semester and earned an A.)
I’ve taught at a small, elite private university, at a small art expensive college, and at larger public universities both in Australia and the United States. A considerable majority of my friends are college teachers, in a variety of different institutions, on different continents.
I do not know a single person who takes attendance for the lecture segment of their large lecture courses. Not one. In those courses, attendance is only taken for the “sections,” where students meet once a week in smaller groups to discuss the readings or complete lab-type work. I don’t even know how you’d go about taking attendance in a class with more than about 50 people in it. Taking attendance would eat considerably into class time.
---
### Author:  [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/353 "2010-10-08T17:01:17Z")
> [@mhendo](#):
>
> Where the hell did you get the impression of hand-holding?
From things like failing you for not showing up to lectures, regardless of your performance otherwise, I would assume. That, to me, is hand-holding. “We don’t think you can pass these classes without having your ass in a chair for 85% of them, so instead of letting you make that decision yourself, we’re going to punish you for not attending to try to force you to go.”
> [@mhendo](#):
>
> I do not know a single person who takes attendance for the lecture segment of their large lecture courses. Not one.
Did you miss the part where I specified that \*in practice \*no attendance is noted for large lectures? It becomes an issue in the upper-level courses and seminars, where 40 would probably be a larger class, in the case of my university.
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### Author:  [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/354 "2010-10-08T17:06:10Z")
> [@mhendo](#):
>
> I do not know a single person who takes attendance for the lecture segment of their large lecture courses. Not one. In those courses, attendance is only taken for the “sections,” where students meet once a week in smaller groups to discuss the readings or complete lab-type work. I don’t even know how you’d go about taking attendance in a class with more than about 50 people in it. Taking attendance would eat considerably into class time.
My old professor for Enterprise Resource Planning systems class (MSIS 427, IIRC, regardless it was a very specialized senior year class) had the uncanny ability to glance at a 150-person lecture class and know exactly who was absent.
Granted that he also taught all five recitation sections, it was still impressive.
On the other hand, going to his class was NEVER a waste of my time, and he’s not the kind of professor under discussion.
I also had a prof for Intro to Finance (BUSI 304) who WOULD take attendance every day in a 500-person lecture and failed students for missing three classes. He’d also fail you for even having a newspaper or any non-class books on your person, let alone out. Unsurprisingly, his class was the worst I have ever had and I very nearly literally slept through every session and got an A from reading the book alone.
I went to a very large public university.
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/355 "2010-10-08T17:09:11Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> From things like failing you for not showing up to lectures, regardless of your performance otherwise, I would assume. That, to me, is hand-holding. “We don’t think you can pass these classes without having your ass in a chair for 85% of them, so instead of letting you make that decision yourself, we’re going to punish you for not attending to try to force you to go.”
You say tomato, i say tom-ah-to.
You say that requiring attendance is hand-holding. I say that it’s letting the students make their own decision about whether or not they want to fulfill the requirements of the course.
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> Did you miss the part where I specified that in practice no attendance is noted for large lectures? It becomes an issue in the upper-level courses and seminars, where 40 would probably be a larger class, in the case of my university.
Actually, in cases where a specific class block each week is allocated for lectures only, i don’t know a single person who takes attendance for that block, even in cases where the lecture size is smaller.
As for seminars, those are (in my field, at least) designed specifically for the purpose of student involvement and participation.
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/356 "2010-10-08T17:12:29Z")
> [@Zeriel](#):
>
> I also had a prof for Intro to Finance (BUSI 304) who WOULD take attendance every day in a 500-person lecture and failed students for missing three classes.
How the hell do you even do that? If you call out the names, even if you can do one name per second (unlikely), that’s almost 10 minutes on taking attendance. And if you send around a sign-in sheet, students can sign in for absent friends and you’d never know about it in such a big class.
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### Author:  [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/357 "2010-10-08T17:58:26Z")
> [@mhendo](#):
>
> Where the hell did you get the impression of hand-holding?
The hand-holding was partly on the regular requirement of essays (weekly/ biweekly) in this thread, and also from lots of discussions on other threads. A lot of times Dopers who work in US colleges /universities say “we can’t expect students to do …” which I would expect as matter of course from uni students here.
> [@](#):
>
> Or small classes, for that matter.
As I said in my quote, from brochures of colleges and universities themselves, where they proudly advertise that you only need to pay x 000 dollars a year tuition, and then you will have a class with only 13 or 17 studentes (and the professor available at all times for a talk). They stress this as if the only way to learn anything was in small classes.
> [@](#):
>
> I literally have no idea how you got that from my posts. The history class i’m teaching this semester requires two essays— a short one and a longer one—and two exams.
The general tenor in this thread to me sounded as if essay writing is used at US colleges to teach students how to write essays (which I think they should have learned in High School, or which should be a seperate remedial course) and so they have to hand in a lot of essays in some classes. Maybe I misread all those posts in this thread saying that?
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### Author:  [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/358 "2010-10-08T18:00:57Z")
> [@mhendo](#):
>
> I say that it’s letting the students make their own decision about whether or not they want to fulfill the requirements of the course.
It’s not a requirement of the course. It’s a requirement of the university.
Do you sincerely believe that merely having an ass in a seat for 36 classes instead of 35 makes someone a better student?
Do you think that every policy at every university you’ve ever taught at is 100% a good idea? That simply \*being enacted \*is proof that it’s worthwhile?
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> As for seminars, those are (in my field, at least) designed specifically for the purpose of student involvement and participation.
As I’ve said, I have no problem with grading based on participation. What I do have a problem with is someone who attends 35 out of 42 lectures being failed, even if they do amazing work when they’re there and get excellent grades on all of their exams and papers, while someone who attends 36 out of 42 lectures can pass while barely speaking up or squeaking by on the work.
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### Author:  [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/359 "2010-10-08T18:01:30Z")
> [@mhendo](#):
>
> I do not know a single person who takes attendance for the lecture segment of their large lecture courses. Not one. In those courses, attendance is only taken for the “sections,” where students meet once a week in smaller groups to discuss the readings or complete lab-type work. I don’t even know how you’d go about taking attendance in a class with more than about 50 people in it. Taking attendance would eat considerably into class time.
So all the comments in this thread so far about grades being based partly on attendance only refer to special parts of classes - sections - which meet regularly and with a small (limited) size for discussion, not the lecture type which you can easily skip?
Because the posts only referred to “courses” and “classes”, I got the impression the grading-attendance thing referred to the whole thing, not to a part.
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### Author:  [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-even-try-to-tell-us-its-not-plagiarized/531903/360 "2010-10-08T18:08:10Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
> >
> > As for seminars, those are (in my field, at least) designed specifically for the purpose of student involvement and participation.
>
> As I’ve said, I have no problem with grading based on participation. What I do have a problem with is someone who attends 35 out of 42 lectures being failed, even if they do amazing work when they’re there and get excellent grades on all of their exams and papers, while someone who attends 36 out of 42 lectures can pass while barely speaking up or squeaking by on the work.
But a seminar is different from a lecture, in that it builds on the previous session, and because it’s participation, you can’t just read the parts you missed in a book like a lecture missed. If you missed last weeks discussion on beginning logic, just saying that student Smith defended modal logic and was taken down won’t be the same as sitting in that discussion and experiencing how Smith had a valid theory but defended it so poorly that it was correct in being shot down, and how you need to prepare your theory better next time.
It’s the same with learning sports or music instrument or anything else where participation builds on each step, you can’t miss some lessons and join in again.
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