# Don't "help the military family down the street". . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2005, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297 "2005-06-29T00:56:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/41 "2005-06-29T19:28:14Z")
> [@Mama Tiger](#): > > That’s really an apples-to-oranges comparison, however. NYC policemen don’t receive the allowances and benefits military people do, which can add up to nearly as much as salary. My son is active duty Air Force right now (E-3), and while his base salary is poor, he doesn’t have to pay basically _any_ of his living expenses if he doesn’t want to. He gets free housing, food, clothing allowance, and transportation around base. So while his salary is a pittance, yet he actually has more disposable income than I do. I’m afraid my view of the ‘free housing’ is based on active duty service on ships. Somehow I don’t see being given a coffin locker to sleep on as being a benefit. 😉 I believe I’ve also mentioned the quality of food that was tossed our way. And while I do admit there’s a bit of apples-to-oranges in my comparison, the NYC policeman is getting about a 30% bonus above comparable entry-level jobs in the same job market. If that’s not a reflection of the greater risks associated with the position, I don’t know what else it might be. While I was working for ConEd in an entry-level position, my base salary was about $30,000 a year. And that was a position dealing with Hazmat, so it was already more compensation than a ‘safe’ job would have. As for your gripe that your son has more disposable income than you do - isn’t that **always** a fact for young, single persons compared to anyone supporting a family? ---
**Author:** ![zenith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zenith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zenith)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/42 "2005-06-29T19:50:43Z")
> [@ShadiRoxan](#): > > I consider myself very good at living on a budget. My husband brings in an E4 salary. Off the top of my head, 1695 base pay, 250 BAS, 1031 BAH, 195 sub pay. That’s for an entire month. We don’t go out. We don’t get many things for ourselves. We have a three month old. We have very few debts. Somehow we can never manage to get anything into savings. Several times I’ve had to pull money out so we can make bills for the month. > > I would in no way consider that a decent living. In many cases I’d say it’s barely doable. Your income is nearly $3,000 a month. You pay taxes on less than 2/3 of that. You have no medical insurance premiums and no need to set aside money in a flex account to cover deductibles and co-pays. A lot of civilians don’t live that well. I myself work jobs that gross about $333 more a month than your husband’s one job and have to pay $93 every 2 weeks for a medical policy that’s so inadequate that I need to put another $50/2weeks into a flex account. I also need an ever-increasing amount of money each month for gasoline to run my 2nd job as an independent contract newspaper deliverer. I pay taxes on everything but the insurance premiums and the gas, so overall I make less than you. The government you serve wouldn’t protect my old job, which paid much better wages and benefits than my present two combined, but could get itself into Vietnam2 in Iraq and wants to guilt me into calmly accepting the mortgaging of my grandchildren’s futures to pay you people better! If it was legal for an individual taxpayer to opt out of paying for anything beyond a Coast Guard and a border patrol in the way of a military, I would. You’ve got it good and don’t realize it. Quit your bitching. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/43 "2005-06-29T19:51:52Z")
Hmmm… 70 grand is not a pittance, even in New York. Do you think they’d take some white-boy from Indiana up there? I always wanted to live in the Big City for a while… ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/44 "2005-06-29T20:50:47Z")
> [@zenith](#): > > A lot of civilians don’t live that well. Most civilians aren’t employed to kill and die for their nation. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/45 "2005-06-29T22:24:31Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > Here’s my problem - The nation asked this woman to be willing to _die_ for it, if necessary, and she agreed. But that same nation wasn’t appreciative enough of her sacrifice and willingness to do what duty required to provide her the means of meeting her other basic obligations up-front. Instead, she had to jump through bureaucratic hoops on her own time to see that those needs were met. > > That’s a crime, in my books. What a crock. She _volunteered_, unless someone snuck in a draft while the entire fucking world wasn’t looking. She signed on knowing what the pay and benefits were, and still didn’t have the fucking sense to keep herself baby-free (since you didn’t enlighten us on the circumstance, I’m assuming she either (a. just plain fucked up or (b. got pregnant to avoid ship duty). The government isn’t responsible for how someone decides to fuck up his life and didn’t agree to support and defend all those fuckups. That’s on their nickel, regardless of who you work for. As for the undefined “bureaucratic hoops”, well that just falls under the heading of ‘tough shit’. ---
**Author:** ![Lt\_AF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lt\_AF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lt_AF)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/46 "2005-06-29T22:44:45Z")
I’m a prior enlisted, currently AF officer who has been married with kids for 1/2 my career. I lived on E-1-\>E-4 pay over the first 6 years of my career. The money wasn’t great. BUT… The government trained me to do my job. I didn’t go to college. I got married and my spouse WORKED. We were fine. The military families that have a spouse staying at home and not working yet still complain about being poor piss me off. I’m sorry, if you couldn’t afford to raise a wife and 3 kids on your E-3 salary then you shouldn’t have had them. It’s called being responsible. The military isn’t a place for people to feel wealthy. Millions of households have 2 working parents and I don’t see any reason why the military should be any different. Now I’m an officer. I make quite a bit more money and I live much more comfortably because of it. BUT… I paid upwards of $40K to put myself thru 4 years of hell in an engineering program while working full time midshift in the process. The AF didn’t pay for my schooling nor are they reimbursing me. I came to the AF with a skillset that they needed, not the other way around. The AF didn’t train me as an engineer as they did when I came in enlisted. Every enlisted person can make the same choices I made to improve their situation within the military. If they need to seperate in order to go to college (as I ended up doing, with a wife and kid to raise) then so be it. Do I want more money? Hell yeah. Everyone does. But this is not a bad gig and bottom line is if you have a large family to raise you should NOT choose the military as your occupation and expect to have a stay at home spouse. It’s not the DoD’s job to finance your large family. Lt. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/47 "2005-06-29T22:56:21Z")
It does seem stringe if soldiers are paid more if they have families than if they don’t – nothing like that happens in civilian life. You want to get married? Have another child? Fine. But there’s no reason to expect your boss to up your salary – in now way does your gaining dependents increase his profits. I also don’t understand why the statement almost always seems to be phrased as “A soldier can’t support a wife and kids on his salary.” Umm. So what? Well over half the women (in the suitable age range) in America have paying jobs. This is even true for those with young children, I believe. To a large degree this is because MOST families need more than just ‘his salary’ to get by. So…if if it’s okay for civilian spouses to help support their family, why isn’t it okay for military spouses? ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/48 "2005-06-29T23:00:19Z")
Whoops. \*\*Lt AF’s \*\* post wasn’t there when I started typing. What He Said, and excuse the redundancy. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Tiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Mama\_Tiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Tiger)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/49 "2005-06-29T23:13:18Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m afraid my view of the ‘free housing’ is based on active duty service on ships. Somehow I don’t see being given a coffin locker to sleep on as being a benefit. I believe I’ve also mentioned the quality of food that was tossed our way. Whereas my son currently is living in a comfortable dorm and has at least edible chow hall meals, and when he doesn’t want to eat at the chow hall, he has disposable income to buy his own food. (I wasn’t griping about his disposable income, especially since now he buys me really nice presents. 😃 ) Not all young single military people live in bad conditions by any means. And joining the Navy, it would hard to imagine that you didn’t know that life aboard ship wouldn’t be a bed of roses. > [@](#): > > So…if if it’s okay for civilian spouses to help support their family, why isn’t it okay for military spouses? One big problem is when a military base is located away from a population center large enough to have a lot of jobs available for military spouses. There’s a lot of bases located far enough out in the sticks that spouses have real difficulty finding a job, especially one that pays more than minimum wage – employers are often not anxious to hire people they know will be moving in a very short time. Or spouses have to travel a long way if they do hold a professional type job, such as the example of the nurse upthread. when I was a military spouse, I had a neighbor who was a nurse who at their last base, a location that had intense security because they did highly classified work, had to travel 2 hours _each way_ to the nearest hospital to work, and that was assuming she didn’t get stopped for a 4-hour search of her vehicle, which happened at least once a month, she reported. Even for the money she made, it was a massive inconvenience for her and her family. And the money was certainly offset by all that travel time and vehicle expense. Military spouses are expected to live in a lot of places they would never in a million years choose, and then up and move as soon as they start feeling settled. They’re often lucky to find crap wage slave jobs, if jobs are available at all. Look at the locations of most military bases in the U.S. if you doubt me. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/50 "2005-06-29T23:16:13Z")
> [@](#): > > m all for defense spending, but why can’t we fucking take care of the people before we go develop another stealth bomber? So you want our military flying around in planes that the enemy can see and shot down?!?! Well I guess if some of our ‘guys’ are KIA we can afford to pay the rest more. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/51 "2005-06-29T23:43:26Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > It does seem stringe if soldiers are paid more if they have families than if they don’t – nothing like that happens in civilian life. Not to be too nitpicky, but it does. For having a kid, I get childcare partially reimbursed by my company, and my insurance automatically covers my him. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/52 "2005-06-29T23:44:30Z")
“My him?” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![ShadiRoxan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@ShadiRoxan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadiRoxan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/53 "2005-06-30T03:37:33Z")
> [@zenith](#): > > Your income is nearly $3,000 a month. You pay taxes on less than 2/3 of that. You have no medical insurance premiums and no need to set aside money in a flex account to cover deductibles and co-pays. > > A lot of civilians don’t live that well. My mother was commenting on how much we make too. To give you an idea of the cost of living in Hampton Roads, my mother’s mortgage on a 1600 square foot house is about $300 less than our rent. Our apartment is half the size and we’re paying nearly double in utilities. Her house is worth about $110k and is in a nice neighborhood in a good part of town. She has over an acre of land. In Va Beach, $130k gets you a townhouse of about 1100 square feet with a very small yard in an okay neighborhood. That $3k isn’t shit to live off of where we have to live. And there are military families who are lesser ranked living in the same area. I feel bad for them. And military medical is worth every penny we pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/54 "2005-06-30T09:54:23Z")
> [@Mama Tiger](#): > > Whereas my son currently is living in a comfortable dorm and has at least edible chow hall meals, and when he doesn’t want to eat at the chow hall, he has disposable income to buy his own food. (I wasn’t griping about his disposable income, especially since now he buys me really nice presents. 😃 ) Not all young single military people live in bad conditions by any means. And joining the Navy, it would hard to imagine that you didn’t know that life aboard ship wouldn’t be a bed of roses. Oh, I knew things wouldn’t be too nice aboard ship. And, since I was surface, not bubblehead, fleet I had scads of personal space compared to someone on a submarine. I’m not complaining about those conditions, really. (The food in port is another subject, altogether.) Just saying that for all that people talk about the automatic rooming ‘benefit’ that comes with military service, it often isn’t comparable to anything a civilian would pay for. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/55 "2005-06-30T16:49:15Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > What a crock. She _volunteered_, unless someone snuck in a draft while the entire fucking world wasn’t looking. The Navy sent a Recruiter to her door. That’s _asking_. I’ve already covered the ‘she agreed’ bit, but apparently you’re a little slow on the language. You also missed the part where I discussed husbands becoming ‘not available,’ but maybe that was asking too much from you - It required that you be able to read _and_ comprehend. Where is it said that husbands and wives having children together is 'fucking up?" Or, for that matter, where has it been written that husbands and wives should not have children? “Baby free,” _indeed_. :rolleyes: Or do you think our military is some kind of monk-hood, where everyone devotes every second of every day to the military, and nothing else? OK, that’s probably unfair to you - I don’t think you’re all that capable of real thought. You _certainly_ fail when it comes to reading comprehension. _Putz_. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/56 "2005-06-30T17:22:41Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > Where is it said that husbands and wives having children together is 'fucking up?" Or, for that matter, where has it been written that husbands and wives should not have children? If they cannot afford them, they shouldn’t have them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/57 "2005-06-30T17:23:41Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > Where is it said that husbands and wives having children together is 'fucking up?" Or, for that matter, where has it been written that husbands and wives should not have children? Responsible couples delay having children until they can afford them. ---
**Author:** ![zenith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zenith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zenith)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/58 "2005-06-30T17:52:33Z")
> [@ShadiRoxan](#): > > My mother was commenting on how much we make too. To give you an idea of the cost of living in Hampton Roads, my mother’s mortgage on a 1600 square foot house is about $300 less than our rent. Our apartment is half the size and we’re paying nearly double in utilities. > > Her house is worth about $110k and is in a nice neighborhood in a good part of town. She has over an acre of land. In Va Beach, $130k gets you a townhouse of about 1100 square feet with a very small yard in an okay neighborhood. > > That $3k isn’t shit to live off of where we have to live. And there are military families who are lesser ranked living in the same area. I feel bad for them. > > And military medical is worth every penny we pay for it. Civilians trying to live on $3K/month in Hampton Roads pay the same costs AND about twice the income taxes that you do. I’m assuming that because your husband’s an enlisted man that he doesn’t have a college degree. I’m also assuming that you’re 20-something in age. Here in the real world, a lot of high school grads in their 20s working only one job don’t pull down anywhere near $3k/month. As another poster suggested, if your husband plans more for his military career than 4-and-out, he needs to further his education to become either a Warrant Officer or an Ensign. It’ll take many years to build up his income one enlisted rank at a time. He’s going to need your getting your nose out of the air and taking some lunch shifts at the Micky D’s or the IHOP to help him accomplish his educational goals. Hampton Roads was expensive back in the '70s when I lived there with a wife and baby. Being there wasn’t my choice as I was induced to enlist by a low draft lottery number. You do get very little there for a lot of money, but I never blamed the US taxpayer for that; I blamed a greedy local power structure. Civilians also end up transferred to lousy areas by their employers. We either put up or we get out. It’s the way of the world, not just of the military. Live with it. ---
**Author:** ![ShadiRoxan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@ShadiRoxan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadiRoxan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/59 "2005-06-30T19:47:06Z")
I don’t expect a hand out. I was merely pointing out what we have. I’m fairly sure my husband would trade places with you in a heartbeat if that meant he got to come home every night or at least hear my voice more than once a month. I’m sorry that you’re offended that we don’t consider ourselves lucky in comparison to you. I do consider us luckier than many other military families who have much more debt and are lesser ranked. Don’t assume that I think I’m above working or that I have no education myself. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297/60 "2005-06-30T20:52:13Z")
> [@zenith](#): > > As another poster suggested, if your husband plans more for his military career than 4-and-out, he needs to further his education to become either a Warrant Officer or an Ensign. It’ll take many years to build up his income one enlisted rank at a time. This isn’t always true. Granted it’s rare outside of the nuc fields to see seven year Chiefs (E-7), but they do happen. Besides, if one can make Chief the pay is comparable to what a prior enlisted officer can make - and the respect is much better. As for warrants, I don’t know about other branches, but during my time in the Navy I met exactly two Warrants. Both of whom were facing their last few years of service. The Navy is going more for LDOs instead of Warrants. Or at least it was during my time in. And an LDO is limited to O-3. Anyone who has a chance at making E-8 or 9 has to think long and hard about taking a decrease in real authority for, at best, a minor increase in pay. And, of course, being stuck forever between two worlds, being neither fish nor fowl. **zenith** , I’ll admit I’m also a little chapped by the tone of your comment: which seems to imply that blueshirt scum don’t deserve to be treated like real people. Which may not have been intended on your part. I’m sorry if I’m jumping on you for things you didn’t mean to imply. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-help-the-military-family-down-the-street/310297.md?page=4)