# Don't kill me please, should I breed my dog? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 13, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719 "2003-12-13T02:44:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![myrnajean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@myrnajean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/myrnajean)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/1 "2003-12-13T02:44:39Z")
I know, I know, there are way too many dogs out there, and the shelters are filled with homeless pets I know all this, and probably if I did breed, I would keep them all, they are just so, so adorable, and this breed has usually under 3 pups, but, the question is… I have a female papillon, and she is perfect, the tiniest, cutest, best tempered animal I’ve ever, ever owned. She fits the breed standard perfectly. She has no titles, because I don’t have the time or connections to do the dog show scene. Does anyone else out there have a tiny (under 4 pounds) dog? Are there problems with puppybirth even if you get a tiny male? I would rather neuter her than have her suffer in a terrible birth or something. I would really like to breed her, but not if it would be detrimental to her health. Has anyone else out there bred a tiny dog? Did you have problems and why? ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/2 "2003-12-13T02:45:46Z")
If you have to ask, then the answer is no. No, no, a thousand times no. ---
**Author:** ![myrnajean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@myrnajean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/myrnajean)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/3 "2003-12-13T02:50:49Z")
why? I ask because I know there are way too many “good” dogs out there, for people to adopt, buy, etc. What I’m asking asking is, is it dangerous for HER? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/4 "2003-12-13T02:55:21Z")
Probably not dangerous if you use the proper male. After all, that’s how your little dog got here, from little parents. Do check with your veterinarian, as he/she will be able to give you a better answer. Also, your Vet may know the whereabouts of a good male to breed your dog to. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/5 "2003-12-13T02:57:23Z")
Well, getting her spayed (neutering is just for males) will reduce her risk of mammary tumors, as well as eliminating the risk of pyometra and ovarian and uterine cancers. Since she’s not a show dog and you don’t appear to know that much about dog breeding, I’d say you most certainly ought to get her spayed asap. People who aren’t familiar with bloodlines and show standards, or who aren’t familiar with common medical problems associated with breeding a particular breed do NOT need to be having puppies. Breeding should only be done by those are well educated on the subject, for the sole purpose of improving the breed. Backyard breeders are the bane of my existence, so I’m a lot more stringent about this sort of thing than most people. ---
**Author:** ![auliya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/90db22/32.png) [@auliya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auliya)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/6 "2003-12-13T03:02:29Z")
If you decide to go ahead- a)Join your state specialist Papillon club, read, read and read more on the breed, it’s genetics, its problems and talk, talk and talk more to people who have been there done that. b)Get your dog thoroughly vet checked for common genetic problems in pure bred Papillons. (eg hips and elbows). c)Make sure you have plenty of cash for emergency vet bills for mother and/or pups, for vaccinations, tattoing, registration etc etc. d)Make sure you have the proper physical environment to raise puppies ie kennels that can be kept hygienically clean ( half a dozen puppies with diarrhoea in a suburban backyard is not pleasant). e)Be prepared to say no to buyers who don’t seem ‘right’ f)When you have all this sorted then you are ready to breed from your dog as a responsible dog breeder. auliya -ex breeder and show-er of champion GSDs. ---
**Author:** ![Miabella](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@Miabella](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miabella)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/7 "2003-12-13T03:09:44Z")
The risk of complications with toy breeds is very high. This is not something to be undertaken unless you know what you are doing and/or have an experienced breeder as your mentor. Many toy breed pups need c-sections, and since birth usually takes place during the middle of the night, this will mean an expensive trip to the emergency vet. If mom doesn’t survive the birth, hand rearing pups will mean around the clock feedings by you for several weeks. You will not be able to work or spend any time out of the home if you want them to survive. If mom and pups survive the birth, mom is very susceptible to eclampsia from low calcium levels due to suckling the pups. If not managed carefully, this leads to seizures and death for mom. Also, pups won’t be able to nurse anymore if mom has this problem, so back to you feeding them around the clock every couple hours. But you do not want her on calcium supplements during pregnancy, as this can lead to problems with bone formation. To anyone who says that “Oh, dogs do this all the time in the wild”, I say bullshit. Any giant or toy breed dog, as well as one with unnatural body types like Bulldogs, has been bred so far from the norm by humans that they require special care in the birthing process. These are not dogs that would thrive on their own in the wild. Lastly, if you are trying to reproduce your dog because she is so great, it’s not going to happen. If it were that easy to create a copy of a great animal, the horse racing industry would be full of nothing but Secretariats at this point. Please don’t breed, you will not be doing yourself, your breed, or your dog any favors. If you love her, get her spayed, keep her safe, and enjoy the time you have with her. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/8 "2003-12-13T03:09:53Z")
Oh, and small dogs with relatively big heads (like Chihuahuas and Papillions) _are_ somewhat predisposed to dystocia, so make sure you can afford a c-section at the emergency clinic before going ahead with the breeding. If you can’t afford to do a c-section and then treat for eclampsia and fading puppy disease, you can’t afford to breed your dog. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/9 "2003-12-13T14:56:25Z")
Some dog breeders have told me that, with all the vet bills, paperwork, puppy chow, and unexpected expenses, there’s rarely any real profit. It’s a labor of love, at best. With your dog’s lack of championships, it’s nearly guaranteed that you’ll lose money on the project. ---
**Author:** ![Gulo\_gulo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bcef8e/32.png) [@Gulo\_gulo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gulo_gulo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/10 "2003-12-13T18:02:46Z")
I am not that familiar with Papillons, so I urge you to join a Papi list and discuss this with _reputable_ Papi breeders. They will tell you the ins and outs of breeding and, I suspect, try to talk you out of it for many reasons already mentioned above. > **[K9 Web - Resources for the Canine Community](https://www.k9web.com/)** > > Here you'll find expert information about dog breeds, behaviors, medical conditions, and much more. Since 1992! Do a search on Yahoo groups for others. Consider going to a dog show and discussing this face-to-face with breeders as well. If I was in the market for a Papi, I wouldn’t even consider untitled parents. You also don’t mention health testing. What’s her lineage? Do her ancestors have any titles? Health problems? Temperament problems? How are her knees? Her eyes? Is she tested for PRA? Is she CERF registered? FYI, there are titles you can achieve other than show titles such as agility, obedience, and flyball. (Schutzhund too, heh.) ---
**Author:** ![Indefatigable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9d8465/32.png) [@Indefatigable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indefatigable)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/11 "2003-12-13T18:52:01Z")
My two cents for any purebred animal, especially one with a radically altered body type such as a miniature breed, would be to only breed if you plan on _becoming_ a breeder. Know the genetic disorders and reproductive problems and such that are common to the breed, so that you can avoid them. Know how to choose a sire so that you don’t choose one with problems that your dog doesn’t have. One thing I know about any purebred breeding scene, whether it be dogs, cats, or horses, is that people are more likely to buy puppies from a well-known and established breeder, because they know that the breeder _has_ done all her research, and won’t be selling them a pup who will develop health problems in future. This is a common problem with ‘backyard breeders’; German Shepherds end up with hip dysplasia, and Cocker Spaniels get this bizarre senility disorder. So, if you plan on breeding you have to get into it whole hog, I think. It can’t just be a little ‘hey, let’s see what happens’ thing. And make sure you have plans for what to do with the puppies in case nobody will buy them from a new breeder. I think it’s best to be acquainted with the breeding business (and the peculiarities of it with respect to your own breed) before you jump in. ---
**Author:** ![Horrifying\_Howler\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Horrifying\_Howler\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horrifying_Howler_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/12 "2003-12-13T19:48:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Schutzhund too, heh 🙂 That mental image left me smiling. Thank-you. ---
**Author:** ![auliya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/90db22/32.png) [@auliya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auliya)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/13 "2003-12-14T02:51:15Z")
arghh me too - the mind boggles 😃 a schutzhund trained Papillon ---
**Author:** ![Elenfair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Elenfair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elenfair)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/14 "2003-12-14T02:57:29Z")
As a dog trainer and fancier, here’s my answer… Mods, this is used with permission… it’s been circulating a long time among breeder circles, vets, and trainers like me. Edited down a tad for space reasons, and I took out the most gory details. I’ve seen some puppies born, and trust me, when things go wrong it really isn’t pretty… This was compiled years ago, if I mistake not, by breeders who shared their experiences breeding. Yes, if you talk to breeders of a specific breed, they have all heard of things like this happening to others… or themselves. A friend of mine, two years ago, lost her Toller bitch and her entire litter of pups… the mom didn’t make it through labor, and they couldn’t find a surrogate… and though they tried to raise the pups themselves, they all died within a week. > [@](#): > > So you want to breed your female. You know what to expect if everything goes right. > > Your little girl will present you with tiny bundles of joy. She will lovingly nurse them and care for them until they are old enough to be weaned. > > You and your family will find great joy in watching and playing with these little dolls, and then when the time is right they will all (or maybe you keep just one) go off to special homes to live out their lives as cherished companions. But have you given consideration to what if something goes wrong? > > \>What if during the breeding… > > 1. The stud dog you have chosen is carrying a venereal disease and gives it to your female. She not only doesn’t conceive but you have to pay the vet bills to get her infection cleared up and she is now sterile. > > 2. The stud dog you decided to breed your darling to is not experienced. Once the two dogs are joined tightly in a tie, he decides to chase the neighbors cat out of his yard. He bolts for the cat ripping his penis loose and causing your bitch to hemorrhage from within. > > 3. Your modest girl decides she doesn’t want the attentions of this gigolo mutt chosen for her without her consent. She snaps at him catching her tooth on his loose cheek and rips it open sending blood flying everywhere. He retaliates by sinking his teeth into her left eye. > > 4. You get her bred. Bring her home. She bothers you so you let her out she is still in heat and still receptive to males). You here a commotion outside there is your girl tied up with the neighborhood mutt. when she whelps there will need to be DNA tests done on the pups. > \>What if during the birth… > > 5. The puppies are too large for the female. She never goes into labor, the puppies die and she becomes infected by the decaying bodies. > > 6. The puppies are coming breech and they drown in their own sacks before they can be born. > > 7. The first puppy is large and breech. When it starts coming your female starts screaming, and before you can stop her she reaches around, grabs the puppy in her teeth and yanks it out killing it instantly. > > 8. A puppy gets stuck. Neither your female nor you can get it out. You have to race her to the vet. The vet can’t get it out either. She has to have an emergency caesarian section of course it is 3:00 am Christmas day. > > 9. A dead puppy gets stuck in the birth canal, but your female is well into hard labor. She contracts so hard trying to give birth that her uterus ruptures and she bleeds to death on the way to the vet. > > \>what if directly after birth… > > 1. The mother has no idea what to do with a puppy and she drops them out and walks away, leaving them in the sack to drown. > > 2. The mother takes one look at the puppies, decides they are disgusting droppings and tries to smother them in anything she can find to bury them in. > > 3. What if because of some Hormone deficiency she turns vicious allowing no one near her or the babies, who she refuses to nurse, or you have to interfere with. > > 4. You notice something protruding from her vagina when you let her out to pee. You take her to the vet to discover a prolapsed uterus, which needs to be removed. [Elenfair’s note: this happened to Zap’s dam (my youngest pup’s mom)] > \>What if when you think you are in the clear… > > 5. One or more of the puppies inhaled fluid during birth, pneumonia develops and death occurs within 36 hours. > > 6. what if the mothers milk goes bad. You lose three of your four puppies before you discover what is wrong. You end up bottle feeding the remaining pup every two hours, day and night. After three days the puppy fades from infection and dies. > > 7. The puppies develop fading puppy syndrome you lose two. You > bottle-feeding or tube feeding the last remaining baby. It doesn’t survive. > > 8. Your female develops mastitis and her breast ruptures. > > 9. Your female develops a uterine infection from a retained placenta. Her temperature soars to 105. You race her to the vet, he determines she must be spayed. He does the spay in an attempt to save her life, you pay the hundreds of dollars bill. The infection has gone into her blood stream. The infected milk kills all the puppies and the bitch succumbs a day later. > > \>So you have to ask yourself: Do I feel lucky? Full gory details here: [http://www.doberescue.com/faq/items/16.html](http://www.doberescue.com/faq/items/16.html) Good luck, whatever you choose to do. Talk to a breeder in your breed, make sure you’ve got a mentor. A first litter can be a scary thing. ---
**Author:** ![Elenfair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Elenfair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elenfair)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/15 "2003-12-14T03:17:14Z")
To follow up on a couple people’s comments on “reproducing your dog”, they’re perfectly right. Genetics are tricky. There’s no way you would reproduce a litter of pups with your bitch’s temperament and conformation unless you know what you’re doing and THEN some. It would require careful line breeding, behind a common ancestor with the temperamental and conformation qualities you are after. Plus, there’s all the health issues, too - who knows what can crop up when some bloodlines mix and you don’t know what you’ve got on your hands… If you’re really into your breed, and really into breeding, then get thee into a showring. Remember, too, that your bitch MAY be conformationally perfectly fine (meets the breed standard almost perfectly) – you also have to consider what her own background is. Two pretty dogs pretty puppies do not necessarily make. For example, an bitch from an outcross may look great, and be a BIG time winner [like my Zap!] but once bred will produce puppies that are just freakish… thems be the tricks of genetics. If Zap had been bred, for example, she would have been relatively closely linebred to “solidify” certain traits aquired by the outcrossing, behind a common ancestor with characteristics to offset her minor faults,etc… First step in breeding right: recognizing your dog’s faults and breeding to eliminate those faults without introducing new ones (or introducing “defects”, either!) Your outcrossed conformation winner may throw puppies that look like chiuauas. Or for all you know, cleft palates. The male you bred to may be in the same situation. Or even worse, your pup may be a carrier of a genetic defect common to her lines…and woah, you’ve bred to a boy who has the same gene… and voila, a whole litter of PRA affected puppies (as an example)… No, breeding isn’t for the faint of heart. Do your pet a favor - get her spayed… it’s not worth the dangers you’d be putting her through. If you want another pup just like the one you have, then go to a reputable breeder - one who will give you all the health guarantees, who will be there for you when you have questions like these, who will shepherd you in the showring, who will be sure to pick a puppy for you… one who is much like the one you currently have, temperamentally speaking… Off the soapbox… 🙂 Elly ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/16 "2003-12-14T13:54:02Z")
Leave it to those who are experienced and committed. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/17 "2003-12-14T14:15:56Z")
My late friend Bill made this page: [http://home.att.net/~wtbr/penelope/penelope.html](http://home.att.net/~wtbr/penelope/penelope.html) If you do go ahead and breed, do what others have said: make sure you have an exhuastive knowledge of the pyshical and personality traits of your dog’s bloodlines, and those of the sire, too. If there is anything fishy, don’t go ahead. Be incredibly picky about who gets to adopt. Make them sign something that says they will not breed their pups. And please be sure you do what our breeder did: she said if there were any problems with our basset hound (we couldn’t keep him, we changed our minds) we should call her and she would take him back. She never wanted to see him in a shelter. If you’re not willing to raise every pup yourself (if things don’t work out with the owners) then don’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![CBCD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@CBCD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBCD)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/18 "2003-12-14T14:46:52Z")
It’s great how much you love your dog. I love my dogs too. I adore them and dote on them. Please don’t breed your dog. Instead rescue a purebred Papillon that would otherwise be euthanized. Here is a rescue organization dedicated to **purebred Papillons**. Look at the dogs available for adoption - they are beautiful. [http://papillonclub.org/rescue/availdogs.html](http://papillonclub.org/rescue/availdogs.html) If you want another dog, contact them. Many people think only mutts are available for adoption. Not so. These dogs will be purebred, and have papers. One of these dogs needs you! ---
**Author:** ![myrnajean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@myrnajean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/myrnajean)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/19 "2003-12-19T18:27:01Z")
Eeegads you all have a lot of horror stories! I have studied the standard for Papillons, and read up on all the AKC and the local clubs website. There haven’t been any dog shows in my area recently, so I haven’t made it to my first one. I would join the local club, but you need to have someone that’s already in the club sponsor you. That means making it to the shows and getting on the “in’s” with people that are already members. I will try to make it to the next show that is in my area though. In answer to some of you all’s points, Yes, I have enough money for medical care, I have no dependants and make decent money. I also realize I’m not “cloning” the dog, her pups would be different from her, obviously. And take my word, I am not faint of heart. No, I’ve never done this before, despite having animals all my life, I’ve never contributed to the over-population of pets. I’ve also never contributed to the human population, (maybe thats why I’m even considering going thru this?) Yes, I can keep them ALL! No, I would never be so stupid as to think I could make money off raising dogs. If that were the case, I’d get a type of dog that had 13 puppies, not 1-3. The medical expenses far exceed anything you could charge anyone to buy them. My dog never goes out unsupervised, even into the back yard, which by the way has a 6 foot privacy fence. Lets see some four legged romeo jump that! She is however the smallest dog I have ever owned. All my other dogs were large, 60-95 pound critters. I was hoping to hear from other people who had bred tiny dogs, I can’t imagine how small the puppies would have to be, they would be like, mice or something. And does being so small, inherently make them weak? ---
**Author:** ![Stephi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Stephi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephi)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719/20 "2003-12-19T20:09:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Elenfair \* > \*\*As a dog trainer and fancier, here’s my answer… > > _Snipped a bunch of incredibly gross stuff!_ > \*\* Jesus, I’m surprised people manage to reproduce, let alone dogs! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-kill-me-please-should-i-breed-my-dog/218719.md?page=2)