don't like your shift? obvious thing to do - set fire to the plane...

The BBQ Pit
41

Of course, I could be wrong, but this guy doesn’t strike me as a psycho. What he did was foolish, impulsive, and dangerous, probably more so than he realized because he’s, well, foolish and impulsive. Not uncommon behavior for young men, although they aren’t generally in a position to kill hundreds of people with their foolish, impulsive acts.

While it might be a pattern of behavior in his young life, I’m not sure there’s a fool-proof method of detecting the potential for dangerous acts in seemingly normal people.

42

Not that the decision to allow passengers to carry a lighter onboard contributed to this incident.

43

Sorry if I flew off the handle earlier. But if this guy wasn’t a psycho, but a normal mixed up young dude, to me that argues even more strongly for NWA’s culpability. Even the most perfunctory training as a FA should have deterred CreWBoY from lashing out this way–see handbook chapters on “why fires on planes are a really bad idea” and “how long you’ll go to prison for endangering an aircraft”.

44

So, what definition of “psycho” do you advocate that they use? Should we avoid hiring anyone with a hint of mental illness in their background?

I don’t have the energy, now, to explain all the reasons why I think this attitude is a bad one. But, just for one: Would you rather have the person hearing voices down the street try to get treatment for that, or would you prefer that he or she hide it until they’re convinced that their mother is trying to kill them and that they have to kill her in self defense, and eat her eyeballs, too? Because by supporting the stigmatization of the treatment or acknowledgment of mental illness, I believe that you’re making the problems worse, not better.

And, as others have said, mental illness is not the same thing as stupid, ill-conceived and selfish actions. I’ve known perfectly sane people do stupid shit that was incredibly risky. And I’ve known nuts who wouldn’t hurt a fly, and who could accurately assess how their actions might affect other people.

45

What part of impulsive don’t you understand?

46

Well, my previous rant notwithstanding, I’m not really going to argue that the guy here was psycho–I agree with others that he was probably a mixed up kid . . . whose lack of judgment should have been vetted in the hiring process or corrected in training.

But as for the separate question of whether people with a history of mental illness should be at least subject to closer scrutiny in a job like a flight attendant: absolutely. Somebody can get treatment and intervention from feasting on Mom’s eyballs on the ground, where he won’t endanger 80+ other people in addition to Mom.

I’m pretty sure most people can rein in their “impulses” in the face of a 20 year prison sentence–that’s what prison is for. And if the person in question does have such horrendous impulse control that prison isn’t a deterrent, I’m pretty sure that can be vetted in the hiring process.

47

In my experience, the last thing impulsive people think about are consequences. But then, I’ve got a very impulsive 17 year old who hasn’t set fire to anything. Who knows.

48

Clearly you have never been involved in any aspect of the hiring process.

49

You still don’t seem to get it, though. I’m not talking about the guy who has done that shit being allowed to work flight crew. I mentioned that case as one where someone who subsequently responded to treatment had avoided treatment until something catastrophic happened.

I’m talking about Joe Late-developing-schizophrenia. A 30-something FA who has been working for ten years in the field, without a problem. And who now, as he has gotten older, has begun to have symptoms of schizophrenia. In this case, he starts to hear voices.

People don’t just begin by doing whatever the voices tell them. Most of the schizophrenics whom I’ve known talk about being worn down by the constant chorus, not some immediate divine (or satanic) revelation that they had to obey. They knew they were having problems. But most of them didn’t know what they were suffering, or that it was a relatively common disorder. And some of them couldn’t risk treatment because of the social stigma associated with seeking help for mental illness.

The real tragedy is that schizophrenia is one of the conditions that may respond to anti-psychotic medications. So, taking some pills with one’s vitamins may be able to keep Joe Late-developing-schizophrenia on an even keel, and give him some rest from the voices that have started to steal his peace of mind.

But your blanket assumption that all mental illness is equally risky to you means that Joe isn’t going to risk losing his fucking job to get treated.

Which means that instead of getting those voices to shut up, they’ll keep sounding off. And he won’t ever tell anyone about it.

Joe may well never do anything about what the voices tell him. I don’t mean to imply that all schizophrenics do become violent or dangerous. But, in this scenario, can’t you see how placing more barriers between people and treatment you’re increasing the risk to the general public?

For that matter, even if Joe never does succumb to the voices, insomnia and other secondary effects are common in the people I’ve talked with who had the condition - which again will impair Joe’s ability to help you in case of an emergency.

Dare I say it, society needs to come up with a more sane and rational way to deal with the mentally ill than simply labelling them all as “dangerous” and keeping them away from the public.

It’s too goddamned late for me, but maybe we can keep some other schlub off disability if we try this.

50

Oh gee, I guess you’re right. There are just no tools available for an employer to screen applicants with poor impulse control. I guess that’s why every airline in the industry has a weekly occurance of young, mixed up flight attendants setting fires on planes.

Yep. Positively an act of God, that. Nothin’ we can do about it. No sirree bob.

51

:rolleyes: And I’m sure you know as many people as I who, despite being able to answer those test questions “correctly” would still not be good job material. In fact, I’m sure NWA employs similar psychological testing on their applicants. Offhand, I can’t think of a single major domestic airline that doesn’t screen applicants. Yet for some reason, you’ve chosen this one incident to cry foul and blame NWA for their “shitty screening.”

Again, as has been pointed out to you, this sounds like an otherwise normal guy who just had something fuck up in his brain that day. Probably had no warning signs that he was even capable of something like this. I’m sure it surprised the hell out of him, too.

52

“What is this lighter doing in my hand, that I smuggled through security? Oh my gosh, why did I requisition those extra paper towels? Why am I throwing them on the lavatory floor? Gee, why am I going back to my cart after throwing the towels on the floor, prepping the cart, and now going back to the lavatory to light the towels?”

Suuuuuure.

Oh, and BTW,

Please don’t use quotes to attribute something to me that I didn’t say.

53

First of all, it’s flat out wrong to suggest that he smuggled a lighter through security.

Second, are you suggesting that you’ve never willingly done something, and then later thought “wow, did I really do that?”

Suuuuuure.

I was using quotes to paraphrase your implied feelings on the matter. Had I wanted to quote you, I would have

54

I used to have a sign that said, “In case of fire, work faster.”

55

Well, let’s ponder that one . . .

*(ponder, ponder, ponder)
(ponder, ponder, ponder)
(ponder, ponder, ponder)

(ponder, ponder, ponder)
(ponder, ponder, ponder)
(ponder, ponder, ponder)

(ponder, ponder, ponder)
(ponder, ponder, ponder)
(ponder, ponder, ponder)*

No, can’t say I’ve ever set a fire in passenger jet while in flight.

Sorry, but setting a fire in a passenger jet while in flight is bat shit crazy – not a simple act of youthful impetuousness. If he was sane, lock him up for a long time for what he did. If he was not sane, lock him up until he regains and maintains his sanity.

56

I’m not suggesting that he shouldn’t be held accountable for his actions. The point is that not all behavioral tendencies can be caught by simple pre-employment screening.

57

Very true. And in this instance we do not know whether or not he could have been screened out, and if so, if that airline uses that particular screening.

58

From the customers perspective the airline is completely responsible for this. This is not to say that the airline itself could have done anything differently to prevent this (perhaps they could have caught this guy through screening, perhaps not). It doesn’t matter. From the customers perspective the airline endangered and inconvenienced them (whether it was a rogue attendant or a technical problem with the plane is irrelevant).

The airline consequently should make amends to the passengers. It should also aggressively go after the attendant for the damages that he caused them.

59

Uhm, had I been a customer on this flight, I’d have an entirely different perspective. Because the airline itself could not have done anything to prevent this, the blame falls entirely on the lunatic flight attendant for endangering and inconveniencing me. That’s not irrelevant, from this customer’s perspective.

Similarly, if my waiter decides to spit in my food on his way from the kitchen, I don’t cry foul and demand compensation from the restaurant (aside from expecting them to terminate the waiter’s employment).

60

I want to start a business hanging around the entrance with envelopes and mailing labels. :slight_smile: