# Don't plan a parade route to cross railroad tracks **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 16, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192 "2012-11-16T15:09:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/61 "2012-11-18T14:25:30Z")
> [@computergeek](#): > > I would think in modern times, trains and tracks have something that can automatically warn trains that something is on the tracks so they can do everything they can to stop. I would think things like this wouldn’t happen if there were, but I suppose if the object isn’t on the track until 15-20 seconds before the train arrives, you can’t stop a train no matter what. Yes, it would be trivially easy to warn trains that the crossing is blocked. However, it would be logistically difficult for the train to do anything about it. At most grade crossings, the signals active [thirty seconds before the expected arrival of the train.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_crossing_signals) A freight train doing 55 MPH [needs about a mile to come to a stop.](http://www.minnesotasafetycouncil.org/facts/factsheet.cfm?qs=858251BECECF1976F908D7D68B570E85) So a train operator would need to make a go/no-go decision 65 seconds before reaching the crossing. Crossing signals would have to be adjusted to activate even earlier than this, so as to give cars/trucks a chance to clear the track before the go/no-go decision has to be made. Car/truck drivers will not be happy about sitting on their hands for a full 70-80 seconds before a train even shows up. Expect many more people to say “fuckit” and attempt to cross the tracks while the signals are active, making things even more hazardous. The burden of yielding at grade crossings is appropriately placed on cars and trucks rather than trains. Sadly some drivers don’t take that responsibility seriously, either because they’re impatient or they are not cognizant of the hazard. When they interview the truck driver, I wouldn’t be surprised if he said something like “I didn’t think it would happen to _me._” ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/62 "2012-11-18T14:26:48Z")
Right, the instant the driver made the decision to proceed forward without first being fully certain he was in the clear, they were doomed. Grade crossings make me very, very nervous anyway. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/63 "2012-11-18T14:43:50Z")
The truck driver screwed up it certainly sounds like. However, was he generally a good truck driver who happened to screw the pooch this one time? Or was he a crappy driver whose luck finally ran out? I guess to the victims it is kind of mute point but in terms of how much hate “should” be directed to the driver it might be relevant. An analogy. Whitewater kayaker A. Shuns a life vest most of the time. Eventually drowns. Conclusion: Dipshit was gonna die sooner or later. Whitewater kayaker B. “Always” wears a life vest. Teaches safety classes even. Is taking a group on beginners on some minor whitewater for classes. Takes vest off for a lunch break. Group starts back out. B gets distracted by something like helping a beginner and gets on the water without realizing his vest isnt on. Happens to hit an easy rapid just wrong and drowns. Did this driver regularly do stupid shit at RR crossings? Did he purposely do stupid shit this one time? Was he distracted? Was there a reason he didn’t hear or see the warning signals?Was he misinformed about something? Did he just have a few second brain fart? Even the worlds most careful people doing dangerous shit have their “I can’t fucking believe I just did that” moment or two. Of course the careless folks have plenty of em and even think they are funny. And the really careless ones don’t even see the issue in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/64 "2012-11-18T19:10:27Z")
I don’t udnerstand this photo: [http://radio.foxnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/11-15-midland.jpg](http://radio.foxnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/11-15-midland.jpg) According to news reports, the train slammed into the flatbed trailer at 62 mph - yet in this photo the chairs atop the flatbed aren’t even knocked over. Or is this a photo of the first trailer, the one that made it through? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/65 "2012-11-18T19:43:03Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Right, the instant the driver made the decision to proceed forward without first being fully certain he was in the clear, they were doomed. > > Grade crossings make me very, very nervous anyway. My father taught me that I should never enter an intersection or railroad crossing unless I was certain that I had enough space to exit it. I was told, specifically, that stopping on RR tracks would get my driving privileges revoked, even if I’d never seen a train on those tracks, and not to enter an intersection and wait in the middle of it for opposing traffic to clear when I wanted to make a left turn “like your mother’s father does” (Grandpa was notorious for edging into traffic, and relying on everyone else’s eyesight, reflexes, and general unwillingness to hit a stationary vehicle). Now, I admit that sometimes I do not follow this advice about the intersections, but as a general rule, it’s a good one. And I do always make sure that I can cross over to the other side of the tracks before I drive over them. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/66 "2012-11-18T19:56:38Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > I don’t udnerstand this photo: [http://radio.foxnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/11-15-midland.jpg](http://radio.foxnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/11-15-midland.jpg) > > According to news reports, the train slammed into the flatbed trailer at 62 mph - yet in this photo the chairs atop the flatbed aren’t even knocked over. Or is this a photo of the first trailer, the one that made it through? The chairs are secured with shipping straps - the kind used to hold down loads of logs and such. The people, however, were not. That picture only shows the front 1/3 of the trailer. The back 1/3 is what was actually struck and there are some chairs dislodged, but it’s not like the trailer was completely crushed or torn off - flatbeds are relatively light - so the trailer was pushed out from under most of the people at 62 MPH. It struck the last four. ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/67 "2012-11-18T20:03:16Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > The chairs are secured with shipping straps - the kind used to hold down loads of logs and such. The people, however, were not. That picture only shows the front 1/3 of the trailer. The back 1/3 is what was actually struck and there are some chairs dislodged, but it’s not like the trailer was completely crushed or torn off - flatbeds are relatively light - so the trailer was pushed out from under most of the people at 62 MPH. It struck the last four. Thank you. Are there any better pics of the flatbed? It still seems like there should have been a LOT more damage than that, the semi-tractor appears perfectly fine, not what I’d expect after its trailer got smashed sideways by a 62 mph train… ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/68 "2012-11-18T20:05:36Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > However, was he generally a good truck driver who happened to screw the pooch this one time? Or was he a crappy driver whose luck finally ran out? Since most CDL drivers don’t cruise around with live, handicapped people on their trailer bed (in most states this is illegal)… I’m thinking that ANY driver should have been more aware of their driving. This has to be one of those times when a person’s brain just mis-fires and picks the wrong option for some unknown reason. No matter why the truck decided to pull across, I’m glad I am not in his shoes right now. All those injured, dead people… all that damage… I doubt there is a hole deep enough to crawl into. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/69 "2012-11-18T20:49:00Z")
any driver that can safely stop before the tracks after the signal starts and still proceeds with their vehicle full of cargo, people or empty is an idiot. any driver that can’t move their vehicle totally beyond the other side of the tracks and still proceeds onto the tracks is an idiot. the truck was going at parade speed and could easily and safely stopped in the seconds the signals were going before the truck passed the signal. in this case and others (buses) people have died due to idiots. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/70 "2012-11-18T20:49:12Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > Thank you. Are there any better pics of the flatbed? It still seems like there should have been a LOT more damage than that, the semi-tractor appears perfectly fine, not what I’d expect after its trailer got smashed sideways by a 62 mph train… I did a google image search on - midland texas train accident - that might turn up more of what you’re looking for. There’s [this one](http://www.navytimes.com/xml/news/2012/11/ap-deadly-veterans-parade-float-train-crash-texas-probed-111612/111612-ap-veterans-parade-crash-800.JPG) that shows the wrecked chairs. There’s also [this video published Saturday](http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-midland-train-crash-warnings-20121117,0,1589904.story) with the NTSB giving a detailed breakdown of what happened. It’s a 24 minute vid, with an article underneath giving a very brief synopsis if you don’t want to watch the vid. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/71 "2012-11-18T20:53:05Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > Since most CDL drivers don’t cruise around with live, handicapped people on their trailer bed (in most states this is illegal)… I’m thinking that ANY driver should have been more aware of their driving. This has to be one of those times when a person’s brain just mis-fires and picks the wrong option for some unknown reason. This is one thing that occured to me that your comment reminds me of. Like you said the fact that the driver wasn’t used to driving under those conditions might have lead him to be distracted enough to not obey the other important rules of the road. He’s so focused on the new stuff he “ignores” the common stuff. You’ve got a bunch of old people in wheelchairs and such on a flatbed trailer. In a parade with vehicles ahead of you and vehicles being you. Maybe with their own old folks load. Don’t go too fast. Don’t go to slow. Don’t hit the gas. Don’t slam on the brakes. Where exactly are we going now? Wait, what was that noise? Damn, thats alot of loud assed fire crackers over there. What the hell did the parade coordinator just say over the CB? Look out, all those kids next to the road might get too close and I’ll run over them. Damn, this truck sure don’t handle like I am used to. OHHHH shittttt…now am half on and half off a RR track! Seconds later disaster ensues. Yeah, the driver might have been a idiot that decided to go for it. But I certainly find it possible it was a bad combination of factors, some bad luck, and general human failings. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/72 "2012-11-18T22:10:14Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > I did a google image search on - midland texas train accident - that might turn up more of what you’re looking for. There’s [this one](http://www.navytimes.com/xml/news/2012/11/ap-deadly-veterans-parade-float-train-crash-texas-probed-111612/111612-ap-veterans-parade-crash-800.JPG) that shows the wrecked chairs. I think the rear axle (back 4 tires on horizontal axle) in that picture should actually be right behind the other axle further up on the truck. So, even thought the chairs are all still strapped in place… the trailer bed was hit hard enough to knock it free from the rear axle (think the force required to knock the weld apart from between two 8 inch I beams). ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/73 "2012-11-18T22:22:39Z")
I think they’re going to find that the parade conditions had desensitized the driver to flashing lights (think fire trucks and police cars in the parade), the driver was in a state of information overload between parade, crowds and passengers and when he saw the green light ahead and truck ahead move forward, he moved forward out of instinct (muscle memory level instinct). ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/74 "2012-11-19T00:42:37Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > I think they’re going to find that the parade conditions had desensitized the driver to flashing lights (think fire trucks and police cars in the parade), the driver was in a state of information overload between parade, crowds and passengers and when he saw the green light ahead and truck ahead move forward, he moved forward out of instinct (muscle memory level instinct). Sounds reasonable (sort of), but if the parade organizers had stopped the trains, or at least found out when they were going to appear and warned the drivers, things might have been different. But this puzzles me (from the NTSB news link above): > [@](#): > > Twenty-one seconds before the crash, the crossing’s southbound traffic signal turned green. > > At 20 seconds, the crossing’s warning lights began to flash and the bells sounded… “Turned green”? One second later the lights began to flash (red)? They were green for a grand total of one second? I’m going to assume that what they meant was the signal _was_ green, not _turned_ green from another color. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/75 "2012-11-19T01:07:38Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Sounds reasonable (sort of), but if the parade organizers had stopped the trains, or at least found out when they were going to appear and warned the drivers, things might have been different. > > But this puzzles me (from the NTSB news link above):“Turned green”? One second later the lights began to flash (red)? They were green for a grand total of one second? > > I’m going to assume that what they meant was the signal _was_ green, not _turned_ green from another color. I believe there are two signals discussed here. A traffic light which in this case turned green for that direction of travel 21 seconds before impact. Then there is also a crossing signal that activated 20 seconds before impact. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/76 "2012-11-19T03:29:22Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Sounds reasonable (sort of), but if the parade organizers had stopped the trains, or at least found out when they were going to appear and warned the drivers, things might have been different. > > But this puzzles me (from the NTSB news link above):“Turned green”? One second later the lights began to flash (red)? They were green for a grand total of one second? > > I’m going to assume that what they meant was the signal _was_ green, not _turned_ green from another color. **Pork Rind** is right. Just to clarify, this is the way any RR crossing is set up where there is an intersection nearby. (I’m sure it’s a designated number of feet but I don’t know that number.) It’s set up so if there is traffic sitting at a red light with a RR crossing behind them, with possible traffic\* crossing the tracks, the light turns green so traffic can move and give anyone crossing the tracks space to complete the crossing once the warning signal starts on the tracks. It is then several more seconds before the gates come down, giving any traffic on the tracks plenty of time/space to clear the crossing before the gates close. \*And by traffic, that generally means the one car that happened to be on the tracks when the lights and bells started, possibly one additional that maybe was following too close or too fast to stop on the closer side of the barrier gates, but that second car will be cutting it really close and technically against the law. ---
**Author:** ![BlueOhio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/439d5e/32.png) [@BlueOhio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlueOhio)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/77 "2012-11-19T15:34:02Z")
Is it normal to have a parade route cross active rail lines in the first place? I live in a place with few active rail lines, so my first impression is whomever planned out the route deserves to be tarred and feathered as well, but perhaps many towns have so many active lines that a parade route avoiding them all would be impossible. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/78 "2012-11-19T15:55:35Z")
> [@BlueOhio](#): > > Is it normal to have a parade route cross active rail lines in the first place? I live in a place with few active rail lines, so my first impression is whomever planned out the route deserves to be tarred and feathered as well, but perhaps many towns have so many active lines that a parade route avoiding them all would be impossible. the parade was being done without permit is what i’ve read. it had been done that way for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/79 "2012-11-19T16:21:10Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > I believe there are two signals discussed here. A traffic light which in this case turned green for that direction of travel 21 seconds before impact. Then there is also a crossing signal that activated 20 seconds before impact. It’s not clear from the reports. From the report, “crossing’s southbound traffic signal…crossing’s warning lights …” These are not the same, or at the same intersection/tracks? ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192/80 "2012-11-19T18:05:51Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > I think the rear axle (back 4 tires on horizontal axle) in that picture should actually be right behind the other axle further up on the truck. So, even thought the chairs are all still strapped in place… the trailer bed was hit hard enough to knock it free from the rear axle (think the force required to knock the weld apart from between two 8 inch I beams). Actually if you look at this pic of the flatbed just before the accident, you can see that the axles [http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NA-BT710\_MIDLAN\_G\_20121116171932.jpg](http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NA-BT710_MIDLAN_G_20121116171932.jpg) looked that way before. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-plan-a-parade-route-to-cross-railroad-tracks/641192.md?page=5)