# Don't play in active volcanoes, people! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 9, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596 "2019-12-09T15:44:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/81 "2019-12-12T21:07:59Z")
> [@Little\_Brother\_1](#): > > At least they died while doing something they loved. They were on vacation. But doing what they loved? I’m not so sure about that. It was a cruise ship excursion. Sure they (or their parents) chose the excursion, but maybe the other choice was to go shopping in Auckland, and maybe they thought a visit to White Island would be the more interesting choice. That’s how a lot of excursions are picked. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/82 "2019-12-12T21:23:26Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Only tourists? They’re expendable. And probably insured. Do their policies exclude “death whilst ignoring warnings”? The Government and taxpayers of New Zealand will pay for all medical costs, through the NZ no-fault personal injury compensation system. > **['A social contract': In New Zealand, you can be compensated for disasters...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-12/new-zealand-whakaari-white-island-disaster-indemnity-insurance/11787816?pfmredir=sm)** > > In New Zealand, people injured in anything from workplace accidents to terrorist incidents and natural disasters can apply for compensation from a government body. But is the no-fault scheme exposing people to greater levels of risk? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/83 "2019-12-12T22:00:49Z")
For the plane trips to Antarctica, people do know that it’s possible to book a trip to actually go to Antarctica, right? As in, walking around on the continent itself? Granted, it’ll be by boat, not plane, and thus a bit slower, but hey, you get to say that you’ve walked around on Antarctica! ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/84 "2019-12-12T22:05:34Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Broomstick: what I think is that most people assume is that with modern science there will be advance warning–as with weather forecasting. Yup, and some of that confusion is due to different volcano types. In the Pacific Northwest, the big volcanoes like Rainier, St. Helens, and Hood, are closed systems. This means the magma chamber is sealed off with a hard cap. You don’t get a spontaneous eruption with a closed system; the pressure needs to build for a while before it can break through, and that pressure build-up can be detected as increased seismic activity and gas venting. So in the PacNW, we’re told that there will be some warning before a big eruption. White Island is an open system, so there’s a direct route to the surface for the magma and therefore much less warning for eruptions. I can envision someone familiar with a well-monitored closed volcano making very poor assumptions about the predictability of other volcanoes. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/85 "2019-12-13T00:07:24Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > I am amazed at how a lot of people stepped up to save the victims. While the official government position was that it was too dangerous for rescue workers, several of the helicopter and boat pilots voluntarily went back to get victims. Now it may have been foolish, since if there was another eruption they might have all died, but their actions helped save lives. I suspect that most of the survivors owe their lives to these volunteers. In a time when my country has made me cynical, I like to think of all the people who pitched in, like those on the boat that had just left that turned around to pick up survivors. “When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, "Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.” ― Fred Rogers ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/86 "2019-12-13T00:48:18Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > I am amazed at how a lot of people stepped up to save the victims. While the official government position was that it was too dangerous for rescue workers, several of the helicopter and boat pilots voluntarily went back to get victims. Now it may have been foolish, since if there was another eruption they might have all died, but their actions helped save lives. I suspect that most of the survivors owe their lives to these volunteers. In a time when my country has made me cynical, I like to think of all the people who pitched in, like those on the boat that had just left that turned around to pick up survivors. Remember that the boat people were right there–while for emergency services it probably would have been close to an hour to get ready and get there by boat. With respect to helicopter services both of the helicopter companies were involved in helicopter trips to the island. Conversely only fairly large emergency service agencies have helicopters–which would be some distance away. So even if they wanted to emergency services couldn’t have gotten there immediately. I expect emergency services did ask the boat people and helicopter pilots if there were people likely left alive on the island. Both would have answered “not to their knowledge”. It’s one thing to take chances to rescue people you know are alive–and quite another when the answer is “probably not”. PS: Authorities have recovered 6 bodies, thus 14 dead in total–leaving 2 still missing and presumed dead. [https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/12/asia/new-zealand-volcano-bodies-recovered/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/12/asia/new-zealand-volcano-bodies-recovered/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/87 "2019-12-13T04:01:48Z")
I grew up 30km inland from Whakatane, and Whaakari/White Island was a constant source of interest (from a distance). I was never interested in visiting, and having grown up with a constant series of tremors attributed to the ongoing eruptive nature of Whakaari in the 70’s, I have never once considered visiting. I’d probably fly over, though. In fact, my concerns were of a different nature - if she decided to seriously blow (Whakaari is a stratovolcano similar to Krakatoa or Vesuvius), I worried about the impact of a tsunami on the extremely flat and low-lying areas round that coast. But why do people go and land there? Maybe, it’s because it’s in Whakaari’s nature to draw people there. > [@](#): > > **Whakaari** is a temptress in the local maori legends. > > _Pūtauaki_ was a male mountain who was in a relationship with _Tarawera_, with whom he had a small son. **Whakaari** was constantly making signals (with those billowing white clouds) to _Pūtauaki_, suggesting that he leave _Tarawera_ and join her in the cool water off the coast of _Whakatane_. > > Now mountains can only move once, and only at night, so _Pūtauaki_ made his plans. One night, Tarawera fell into a deep sleep, and _Pūtauaki_ set off for the coast. So intent was he on his journey that he did not hear the small footsteps of his son following behind him as he made his way. But try as he might, the little mountain could not keep up with his fathers large steps, and he called out to his father to slow down. > _Pūtauaki_ remonstrated with his boy, telling him to return to _Tarawera_ and to stop following, but the child cried and would not move. Three times, this happened. > Dawn came, and froze _Pūtauaki_ and his son - forever halfway between his wife _Tarawera_ and the temptress **Whakaari**. _Tarawera_, having lost both her husband and her son, burst into tears, tears that still flow from _Tarawera_ around the feet of her errant husband and son and out to the sea, while _Pūtauaki_ still gazes out to the white signals that **Whakaari** sends skyward, tempting him on. > > It’s as good a reason as any to explain why people are still drawn to Whakaari/White Island in spite of the dangers - people have died there in the past (sulfur miners), and people just can’t seem to keep away. > > And of course, _Tarawera_ did finally lose her temper, erupting violently in 1886, blowing open a 17km crater, destroying three peaks and blowing up a lake (with the Pink and White terraces). ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/88 "2019-12-14T01:27:30Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > I am amazed at how a lot of people stepped up to save the victims. **While the official government position was that it was too dangerous for rescue workers** , several of the helicopter and boat pilots voluntarily went back to get victims. Now it may have been foolish, since if there was another eruption they might have all died, but their actions helped save lives. I suspect that most of the survivors owe their lives to these volunteers. In a time when my country has made me cynical, I like to think of all the people who pitched in, like those on the boat that had just left that turned around to pick up survivors. …this is a pretty despicable retelling of events. The official government position is that it was too dangerous to return for **body recovery**. We know the people that were left on the island were dead because we were told by the civilian rescuers who left them there. It wasn’t too dangerous for rescue workers because there was nobody left to rescue. On the state of the island: > [@Nandor Tanczos](#): > > The Island is still in a potentially sudden explosive state. A White Island Tours skipper said that this eruption was like a bomb going off with shrapnel going off and only about 3 seconds from seeing the first unusual puff of steam to encountering the full blast. > > A thick layer of ash has changed the landscape, covered the tracks etc. and it is this layer of ash that contains the toxic and noxious gases that is releasing more so when disturbed. This is the problem gas and not that being visibly emitted from the crater and surrounds. > > He further advised that attempts to mitigate the gas using masks and standard Breathing apparatus equipment were unsuccessful and highly limited. We were told that specialist suits and re-breather equipment was on it way as we spoke. > More at the link. The official government position was and is the correct one. There was no urgent need to recover the bodies: in fact a delay to a allow proper recovery (to aid in the identification of the bodies) was preferable. That doesn’t mean those that acted in the moment at great risks to themselves stop being heroes. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/89 "2019-12-14T13:49:45Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I would never ride a motorcycle without wearing a helmet, that would be crazy, but I disagree with laws requiring helmet use by adults. In fact, I supported ABATE of Pennsylvania and helped them encourage PA to change their helmet law, which they did in 2003. As expected, fewer Pennsylvanians wear helmets and more deaths occur as a result. > > Similarly, when laws in my area were first introduced to make smoking in bars illegal, I helped a bar-owning friend fight the law. Once the law was rescinded and people were once again allowed to smoke in his bar, he made his bar non-smoking _voluntarily_. This feels so… childish? I really don’t mean to be insulting, but that’s the best description I can think of. It’s like when I was a kid (with a permanently messy room\*) that my mom haaaated and would make me clean it. And occasionally I would feel like hey, I want to get this room clean, I’m gonna do it without mom telling me to! And right as I was about to start, she’d make a snide passive aggressive comment and tell me to go clean it. That instantly changed my attitude to “SCREW THIS, I DON’T WANNA DO IT ANYMORE!” - Just cluttered with stuff not put away. My ADHD brain still defaults to horizontal surface == a shelf for stuff! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/90 "2019-12-14T14:45:59Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > [Found it](https://robbiesenbach.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/grand-canyon-sign.jpg)! > > Not a he, but a she. [This page](https://robbiesenbach.com/how-a-story-can-save-lives/) (the host for the photo) does a quick and dirty summary. The LA Times also did a story on the incident: [Running dry](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-aug-17-os-canyondeath17-story.html). Thanks for that. Once again the Mandela effect strikes. Even now as I’m looking at the photo in your links I’m seeing a smiling _guy_ in my mind. I must have the GCNP pic conflated with one of Jim Fixx or something. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/91 "2019-12-15T08:13:19Z")
…some more information about the body recovery effort: > [@Stuff](#): > > Wading through boiling, knee-deep acidic sludge, the team of experienced specialist soldiers tasked with recovering six bodies from Whakaari/White Island looked at each other in doubt. > > The battle-hardened veterans from the Defence Force’s SAS E Squadron team had never found themselves in a situation like this before. > > … > > About an hour and a half into the operation, fatigue had pushed the team to a crossroads. > > They returned to the boat, poured water down their suits, and discussed what to do next. > > "Our thoughts were we can’t not do it. > > “We were thinking, we don’t have enough time to stop again, we’ll find a way through this.” > > … > > It was when they reached the bodies at the island’s crater that they hit dense mud, and had difficulty lifting equipment over sharp ravines. > > “It was unbelievable, not a condition we train for or ever expect to operate in, it’s just so much hotter than you could expect.” > > … > > Once the team got back to the HMNZS boat themselves many of them were “pretty crook”, Matt said. > > “We are talking about people trying to re-hydrate at sea”, Colonel Rian McKinstry said. > > “There were a few people vomiting, drinking water, and everyone was very fatigued.” [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/118198952/whakaariwhite-island-sas-commander-who-led-recovery-mission-reveals-how-they-nearly-didnt-make-it](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/118198952/whakaariwhite-island-sas-commander-who-led-recovery-mission-reveals-how-they-nearly-didnt-make-it) These were our special forces elite and they \*\*barely \*\*managed to accomplish their mission. Incredibly bravery and strength shown by everyone involved from the first responders to the paramedics and the doctors and the nurses and to Ngai Te Rangi, the police and the people involved in the recovery effort. Aroha to the families and those still in hospital. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Brother\_1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_brother_1/32/3513_2.png) [@Little\_Brother\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Brother_1)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/92 "2019-12-15T18:46:33Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > On its face this sounds reasonable, but you know that the risk management calculus for rescuers (and the resource utilization calculus for emergency medical personnel) will never be made dependent on moral judgments about the victims they rescue/treat. This inspires a tangential point, beginning with an admission of my own bias or agenda: I’m not athletic, outdoorsy, compelled to seek thrilling or challenging physical ordeals, or possessed of wanderlust. That said, as a proud rational slug I don’t begrudge tourists and adventurers to go whither they will, and do as they wish. I’m even resigned to conceding places like Mount Everest to alpha-types turning it into a filthy trash-dump for the sake of personal glory. Ah, wilderness! But I have long believed that persons undertaking any risky outdoor activity in wild or remote areas, especially a purely recreational activity, should be _required_ to purchase “rescue insurance” to pay for any and all rescue efforts. No tickee… wait, can’t say that anymore. No insurance, no adventure! I think it’s commendable that government agencies and private parties rally to speedily rescue endangered tourists, hikers, spelunkers, etc. I appreciate that the public is transfixed by rescue stories, and that protracted, difficult rescue operations are regarded as heartwarming object lessions in compassion, empathy, altruism, and conviviality-- especially if the parties are eventually rescued alive. I don’t wish to deny intrepid explorers their rendezvous with destiny, or the public their captivating melodramas. But I see no reason why taxpayers should foot the bill; I think the risk-taker should be fully responsible for the ultimate cost of their self-indulgence, regardless of how noble and socially acceptable it is. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/93 "2019-12-15T19:46:12Z")
There are two problems with that: 1. underwriting that is going to be a bitch. How do you figure out how much premium to charge for a boat trip to White Island? 2. There’s an element of morale hazard – people who have paid “insurance” to be rescued are more likely to expect someone to come rescue them, and are likely to take dumber risks. And what do you do about “non emergency rescues”? What about the guy who goes hiking, and sprains an ankle. Without “insurance”, he has no expectation anyone will come for him. If he’s not an idiot, he took a companion or two, and the group of them will support him as he hobbles out. But if he bought “rescue insurance”, does he expect someone to extract him? Does he go without companions because he has insurance? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/94 "2019-12-15T20:35:11Z")
What is a reasonable risk that tax payers should pay for? Driving a car? walking? riding a bike mountain biking? mountain biking on a sealed path? Mountain biking on a dirt path? Doing a jump on a bike? Skiing? Skiing on a groomed trail? Skiing off piste? Etc. Walking on a volcano is a tame activity provided it doesn’t erupt. What if it erupts properly and takes out the surrounding towns? Is living near an active volcano an unacceptable risk? Why/why not? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/95 "2019-12-15T21:18:07Z")
Things like an Everest climbing permit are hardly free, more like tens of thousands of dollars, but it does not seem like the prices are based on any risk-based calculation (indeed, with activities that extreme, if anything goes horribly wrong you should not expect anyone to be able to save your life, no matter how much “insurance” you pay for. They will probably not even be able to retrieve the body). If they _can_ get you, though, they will: they would not leave anyone injured to die in order to save some money. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/96 "2020-11-30T14:00:56Z")
An update. > **[New Zealand officials file charges over deadly White Island volcano eruption...](https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/30/asia/white-island-volcano-charges-intl-hnk/index.html)** > > New Zealand officials have filed charges against 13 parties that allegedly failed to meet their health and safety obligations when visiting an active volcano which killed 22 when it erupted last year. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596/97 "2023-10-31T05:34:01Z")
> WML was the only defendant left after charges against six other entities – including [personal charges against the brothers](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/05/new-zealand-judge-dismisses-charges-against-white-island-volcano-owners) – were previously dismissed by a judge… > The verdict on Tuesday ends what started as an ambitious undertaking by WorkSafe, the country’s workplace safety regulator. Investigators from the government agency originally charged 13 parties, including science agencies and tourism firms, with health and safety law breaches after the disaster. However, Worksafe’s case crumbled as the judge dismissed the remaining charges except those against WML. > **[White Island volcano eruption: Whakaari Management found guilty of...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/white-island-volcano-eruption-whakaari-management-found-guilty-of-astonishing-safety-failures)** > > New Zealand judge Evangelos Thomas criticised failures of safety audits given ‘obvious risks’ that led to 2019 fatal eruption [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-play-in-active-volcanoes-people/844596.md?page=4)