# Don't push me, cause I'm close to the edge **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 14, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130 "2004-10-14T00:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/1 "2004-10-14T00:40:26Z")
I guess this is where it all started. > [@grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five](#): > > My son said daddy I don’t wanna go to school > Cause the teacher’s a jerk, he must think I’m a fool > And all the kids smoke reefer, I think it’d be cheaper > If I just got a job, learned to be a street sweeper. Maybe ‘Rapper’s Delight’ came before. But this is another matter. Not just a gimmick. Not just rhyming. There’s more: > [@GMF&TFF](#): > > You grow in the ghetto, living second rate > And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate > The places you play and where you stay > Looks like one great big alley way There’s anger and hatred and passion. Did it get any better? Did rap _evolve_ from this or _devolve_? > [@](#): > > But then you wind up dropping out of highschool > Now you’re unemployed, all null ‘n’ void > Walking around like you’re pretty boy Floyd > Turned stickup kid, look what you done did > Got send up for a eight year bid It’s been 22 years since it was released. > [@](#): > > It was plain to see that your life was lost > You was cold and your body swung back and forth > But now your eyes sing the sad sad song > Of how you lived so fast and died so young I was in my early 20’s when it came out, and I was electrified. This was the beginning of something new. This was not mere posing. But we got Heavy D and the Boyz, Vanilla Ice, Snoop Dogg and P Diddy. Where did it all go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/2 "2004-10-14T00:48:49Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > Where did it all go wrong? Ka-ching!! Money ruined it like everything else. I still have that on a 12" record. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/3 "2004-10-14T01:11:41Z")
It’s like a jungle sometimes it makes me wonder how I keep from going under. Huh-uh-uh-huh-huh ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/4 "2004-10-14T01:22:51Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > I was in my early 20’s when it came out, and I was electrified. This was the beginning of something new. This was not mere posing. > But we got Heavy D and the Boyz, Vanilla Ice, Snoop Dogg and P Diddy. > Where did it all go wrong? Yeah, and we’ve gone from the Beatles to got Nickelback, Creed, and Staind. So rock must have gone horribly wrong too. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/5 "2004-10-14T01:41:38Z")
There’s stil tons and tons and tons of high-quality, profoundly moving, fantastic, _electrifying_ rap music out there. Stay away from the commercial stuff. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/6 "2004-10-14T03:38:23Z")
How funny. I just posted that song a few weeks ago in **Biggirl** ’s LJ. Odd how things come and go across time and space. What made you think of it? I was reminded of it by something that made me very angry. Errr. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/7 "2004-10-14T04:19:49Z")
Yeah, shit. Check out some [url=“[http://www.saulwilliams.com/](http://www.saulwilliams.com/)”]Saul Williams[/url and tell me rap is in a degenerate state. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/8 "2004-10-14T04:20:58Z")
Crap. [Saul Williams](http://www.saulwilliams.com/). ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/9 "2004-10-14T04:47:54Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Crap. [Saul Williams](http://www.saulwilliams.com/). Holy shit, that’s cool. How have I never heard of this guy? ---
**Author:** ![Freejooky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba8739/32.png) [@Freejooky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freejooky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/10 "2004-10-14T06:11:44Z")
Saul Williams’ role in _Slam_ was amazing, and his early Rawkus singles (like “twice the first time”) were incredible. His actual debut album was awful, a rap-rock mess, but I hear he has a new record coming out that gets back to his roots. Also, Def Jux has released three of the best rap records that have come out in the past 10 years - El-P’s “Fantastic Damage,” Aesop Rock’s “Labor Days”, and Cannibal Ox’s “The Cold Vein.” Check that stuff out. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/11 "2004-10-14T06:30:46Z")
I love early rap too, including Grandmaster Flash, Newcleus, and Whodini. It’s fun stuff, joyful, yet can have a message. I thought the gangster attitude of the early 90s was a wrong turn. Early rap never had stuff about killing cops, etc. It didn’t take long for rap to get too hardcore for it’s own good. But at the same time you had hip-hop coming on line with lots of new grooves and ideas. Bands like Guy and Bel-Biv-Devoe combined rap with singing and so on. That was good. Although it’s now a little old, the soundtrack of _Romeo Must Die_ has lots of impressive rap with interesting new tonalities and approaches. Good stuff. So I can’t quite agree with the OP. ---
**Author:** ![START](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@START](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/START)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/12 "2004-10-14T06:33:56Z")
Please don’t put Snoop with Vanilla Ice. The guy from the surreal life, c’mon. Snoop gets respect from Underground Hip Hop fans and Mainstream because he is a good emcee not to be put in the same category as Mr. Surreal Life aka Vanilla Ice. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Niceguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mr.Niceguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Niceguy)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/13 "2004-10-14T06:49:12Z")
Broken glass everywhere people pissin’ in the street you know they just don’t care Can’t take the smell can’t take the noise got no money to move out guess I got no choice… Great record. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/14 "2004-10-14T08:19:47Z")
And yes, the same happened to punk, in a much shorter time. Rap turns 25 this year and has shown remarkable longevity. But “stay away from the commercial stuff” is no excuse. The Message was thouroughly commercial. I’m too old to hang around record stores and follow the music scene actively. That burning interest just isn’t there anymore. But I shouldn’t have to look for good rap / hip-hop. Now it’s all being drowned in gangsta, bling and awful videos with scantily clad women shaking their butts. I’ve got nothing against scantily clad women, but it’s almost impossible keep one video apart from another. Yeah, yeah. It’s my own fault. I still wanted to rant a little, though. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/15 "2004-10-14T13:19:35Z")
It’s not that there’s a shortage of good rap. The genre’s going pretty well, pulling in and throwing out influences along the way. Plenty of good stuff. But the thing is that _The Message_ wasn’t a good record that made you think that something new with great promise had arrived: it was a _great_ record. Everything about it was right. After hearing it at pretty much the same time I first heard of rap I just expected ten records of that quality a year. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/16 "2004-10-14T13:27:28Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > Ka-ching!! I think you mean “bling -bling” Chris Rock does a funny bit where he’s saying how much he loves rap but can’t defend it anymore. "In the old days, you could defend Public Enemy and RUN DMC on an intellectual level. They were talking bout the street, man. “I can’t defend ‘I’ve got hos in every area code’!” There’s no justifying ‘move bitch! get outta da way! Get outta da way bitch!’ Uhhh you see…he’s got this bitch…and he wants her to move out of the way…" In all fairness, though. Musically, the rap and hip hop sound have come a long way since the 80s even though the message has become somewhat trivialized. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/17 "2004-10-14T16:31:36Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Yeah, and we’ve gone from the Beatles to got Nickelback, Creed, and Staind. So rock must have gone horribly wrong too. If you think that’s all there is, you’re listening in all the wrong places. There are tons of great bands out there, but as it’s always been, they aren’t played on mainstream radio or shown on MTV. As for rap/hip hop, the old stuff is great, but there is still innovative music happening all the time. I think Eminem and Dr. Dre are both examples of mainstream artists who have managed to keep a level of creativity in their music that most of the newer “stars” do not have. Talib Kweli, Mos Def, and Jay Z are also doing new and interesting things. And I’ve always liked Wyclef Jean, Erykah Badu, and Common for substance in lieu of the bling bling. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/18 "2004-10-14T16:36:14Z")
Nobody picks up on sarcasm unless there’s a :rolleyes: right there… ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-push-me-cause-im-close-to-the-edge/269130/19 "2004-10-14T16:41:02Z")
What rap needs is Public Enemy. _Fear of a Black Planet_ was to rap what _Sgt. Pepper_ was to rock and roll. It’s still the greatest rap album ever made. “Talk to me about the future of Public Enemy.” “The future of Public Enemy got a…”