# Don't say "That's awful white of you," please. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941 "2006-03-03T19:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/221 "2006-03-06T19:47:44Z")
> [@](#): > > They were all in situations in which there would be no obvious relationship to race or skin colour. I have not been able to find any history (yet) on “red of you,” so we’re left with speculation until someone with real information shows up. Given the location, I could see a couple of possibilities: It could have been a racist counterpart to “white of you,” based on prejudice directed against the Chrokee and Creek and other peoples of the region. It could have been a simple phrase picked as a color contrast to “white of you” after “white of you” had been sanitized in that region. (If it was coined late enough, red might have been picked as the deliberate color contrast to white to avoid using black.) Clearly, racist phrases have been sanitized (or lost their racial overtones) _among some speakers_ when the phrase has been passed down outside the original racial context, but without a trail indicating when and where “red of you” was coined and how widely it was used, I am not going to pretend I know where or how it originated. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/222 "2006-03-06T20:01:53Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It could have been a racist counterpart to “white of you,” based on prejudice directed against the Chrokee and Creek and other peoples of the region. Appalachian Ohio and West Virginia, so no Cherokee or Creek. If it is related to race prejudice, then my guess would be that it wouldn’t be directly connected with real-life interactions between whites and Native Americans, but rather a sort of historically displaced, legendary anti-Indian prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2006, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/223 "2006-03-06T20:34:33Z")
> [@Charger](#): > > A few months ago, I was at a hotel which had a large crowd in a narrow pathway. As I tried making my way past the line of people, I commented “Wow, they need to make this place wider.” At that point, a large black woman who was next to me said “Excuse me?!?” It took me a while to even register what happened. She had taken my comment to be “They need to make this place _whiter_.” By that point, I was too far nudged along to respond to her. But I couldn’t help but think…Just how fucking careful do we have to be in our efforts not to offend people? > > Also, this woman must not think very highly of white folks if she **automatically assumes the worst** of whatever comes out of our mouths. _That_ was the part that bothered me most of all. > > I get the feeling that a lot of “racist remarks” are often miscommunications. Yeah, maybe some people are ignorant clods who don’t know that they actions can be construed as racist, but just think of them as ignorant clods, not as racists. “Remember the other day when you asked me what ‘irony’ was?” Seriously, are you sure you knew what was going on? You pointed out that this woman was large and still you missed the point; which is baffling because otherwise,mentioning her size was meaningless. You squeeze past a fat woman while simultaneously complaining that the place should be wider, and then when she balks, you assume her offense was based on mishearing what you actually said as a clumsy, irrelavant, unlikely racial comment? Then you accuse her of assuming the worst of white people? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2006, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/224 "2006-03-06T21:05:23Z")
Good catch, **pizzabrat**. ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/225 "2006-03-06T21:32:45Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > But it is NOT “my own” idiosyncratic meaning. There have been any number of posters here who not only use it in it’s sardonic sense, but understand it that way as well. If it meant only one thing for me and never meant that for anyone else, of course I would stop using it–who has a special language for one? > > I am now bowing out of this thread–we are merely repeating ourselves to no good purpose. Long run-on sentence ahead: So if I called an idea “gay” meaning - let’s say, “lame”, or I called a person “retarded” meaning - let’s say, “silly”…is excusable by saying it’s meant only in one sense and that no one should take offense since others have used it too and despite the fact that I’ve been made aware that it’s offensive to some, I’m determined to use my pet phrase? It offends me - the use, no matter how “sarcastically” spoken always reminds me of the original intent. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2006, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/226 "2006-03-06T21:51:35Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > Good catch, **pizzabrat**. How so? She missed the most relevent sentence. The first one: > [@Charger](#): > > A few months ago, I was at a hotel which had **a large crowd in a narrow pathway.** As I tried making my way past the line of people, I commented “Wow, they need to make this place wider.” He wasn’t talking about the woman he walked past who took umbrage, he was talking about the hallway. Keerist, people. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/227 "2006-03-06T22:08:02Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] How so? She missed the most relevent sentence. The first one: And immediately next to that sentence, he goes on to talk about the “large black woman right next to him”. Which leads me to wonder if her reason for taking umbrage had nothing to do with mishearing “wider” as “whiter”, and more to do with her thinking he was talking about people’s size. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/228 "2006-03-09T20:39:46Z")
**By Askia:** > [@](#): > > Well, I’m getting to this argument awfully late, but (throwing in two cents)… I’d see this statement as being prejudicial and bigoted before I’d see it as racist. Just like “It’s a black thing… you wouldn’t understand,” is a prejudicial and bigoted statement. > > The first time I heard it, some twenty years ago, (WOW. That much time has passed?) this woman named Lisa from New Orleans said it to me after I made a big deal out of doing something I was supposed to do, like wash my own dirty dishes. I took it as a reference to how certain whites who thought treating a black person on equal terms was a big deal when from the black guy’s prespective it was something you’re supposed to do. > > I have used the phrase maybe three times in my life (as “mighty white”) and I always meant it as a sarcastic “thanks.” > > Perhaps because of its unneccessary (and these days, unfair) racial connotations I’ve never used it much. > > It don’t hear it much now. Someone **By tomndebb:** > [@](#): > > I have never in my life encounterd the phrase “mighty red of you,” so it would be difficult to say much about its meaning or origin. > > First, I would need some clarification of “opposite”: > > - Is it used by whites to indicate “you are acting beneath your station; I expected better of you”? > - Is it used by whites to sarcastically mean “what a friend to the Earth you are”? > - Is it used by whites, but directed to Indian acquaintances, to mean “you are not a credit to your people”? > - Is it used by Indians (directed toward white acquaintances) to mean “you’re better than most of those white folks”? > - Is it used among Indians to sarcastically mean “you are acting white”? > - Is it used among Indians to mean “I’m proud of you”? > > Is it being employed in lily-white suburban neighborhoods? > Is it being used in places (Northern New York, Upper Michigan, central Montana, etc.) where there is some lingering racial friction between whites and Indians? > > Each possibility relies on its own set of stereotypes and prejudices, along with a need to know whether it was intended directly or sarcastically. > > The phrase could be something as simple as turning “mighty white of you” on its head in the context of local dialect or racial relations or it might have some totally separate origin and meaning. Actually, all of you have come close to characterizing this phrase correctly, with the range between and a combination of **Askia’s** and **tomndebb’s** posts coming closest and being most representative of its possible present connotations. When I say that, I don’t mean that I’m an expert, but I have a reference to a highly reliable expert source\* and I’d just like to add another piece to the discussion. Although tomndebb has outlined a more comprehensive array of racial, ethnic and geographic contexts, I’d like to add the following general interpretation (_and this is only one variant interpretation_): The phrase is _racist_ in its origins: “That’s white of you” used by whites to whites to mean you have certain qualities (listed in saoirse’s oft-repeated link) because you are “European” that I am complimenting and other races and nationalities, by implication, don’t have them. WE are better because WE are in that group (and therefore, the comment is racist). In the United States, the other race was most probably, but not exclusively, blacks. The phrase evolved into something that became more _racial_ than _racist_ (although its racist origins were still linked to it): “That’s [mighty] white of you” expressed to a white person by anyone who is meaning to be sarcastic, to mean THAT INDIVIDUAL being commented on has behaved in some way the he thinks places him in that supposedly better group, but is wrong either because (a) the Europeans aren’t better than anyone else, and/or (b) THAT INDIVIDUAL hasn’t actually demonstrated the “Euro-characteristics” he thinks he has. Actually, I think **eleanorigby** , perhaps without realizing it but using her finely-tuned sense of semantics, took the phrase to a more sophisticated level of ironic, sarcastic commentary about **MartinHyde**. By using the phrase “That’s mighty white of you” in the thread where it appeared (I can’t find the link right now), she was actually referencing one or more of those assumed “higher” European characteristics, turned THAT CHARACTERISTIC on its head, and commented on THAT INDIVIDUAL’s lack of that quality, in this case, having nothing to do with race. Ultimately, in no way has **eleanorigby** called **MartinHyde** a racist or been racist herself, **regardless of her knowledge, the origins of or the racism connected to the phrase**. Although it originally meant “I am (we are) [good trait] and, by implication, they’re not [good trait].” and evolved into “You (or that group) are not really that way either [good trait],” it never actually only meant “Those other people are not [good trait]”. - My expert reference was its use by George on “The Jefferson” to a white man, I can’t remember who he said to though. ---
**Author:** ![MrBlack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71c47a/32.png) [@MrBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrBlack)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/229 "2015-03-23T20:42:25Z")
I am offended by your post. Don’t you remember the lesson ‘sticks & stone may break my bones but words will never hurt me’. You obviously didn’t learn it and I am offended by your ignorance. Not just from not learning this lesson, but also of the actual historical meaning of the ‘mighty white’ phrase. :smack: You are exposed as a simple race baiter. According to your type of logic maybe we should simply outlaw the use of all words deemed offensive. Get a life. Call the whaaambulance race baiter. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/230 "2015-03-23T20:44:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’ve only ever heard it used sarcastically, to mock people who hold some degree of racial prejudice. Do you find it offensive in that context, as well? That’s how I use it. It’s always a sardonic insult. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/231 "2015-03-23T20:45:31Z")
> [@MrBlack](#): > > Not just from not learning this lesson, but also of the actual historical meaning of the ‘mighty white’ phrase. :smack: Which is? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/232 "2015-03-23T20:45:53Z")
> [@MrBlack](#): > > I am offended by your post. > Don’t you remember the lesson ‘sticks & stone may break my bones but words will never hurt me’. You obviously didn’t learn it and I am offended by your ignorance. Not just from not learning this lesson, but also of the actual historical meaning of the ‘mighty white’ phrase. :smack: > You are exposed as a simple race baiter. > According to your type of logic maybe we should simply outlaw the use of all words deemed offensive. Get a life. > > Call the whaaambulance race baiter. You are offended by a 9 year old thread? Seriously, what search string lead you to pick this thread to reanimate? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/233 "2015-03-23T23:23:10Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That’s how I use it. It’s always a sardonic insult. Yes. “That’s mighty white of you.” Translation= “Fuck off!” I have never heard it said to anyone who wasn’t being mocked. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/234 "2015-03-23T23:26:25Z")
> [@MrBlack](#): > > I am offended by your post. > Don’t you remember the lesson ‘sticks & stone may break my bones but words will never hurt me’. You obviously didn’t learn it and I am offended by your ignorance. Not just from not learning this lesson, but also of the actual historical meaning of the ‘mighty white’ phrase. :smack: > You are exposed as a simple race baiter. > According to your type of logic maybe we should simply outlaw the use of all words deemed offensive. Get a life. > > Call the whaaambulance race baiter. u mad bro? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/235 "2015-03-23T23:28:38Z")
> [@MrBlack](#): > > I am offended by your post. > Don’t you remember the lesson ‘sticks & stone may break my bones but words will never hurt me’. You obviously didn’t learn it and I am offended by your ignorance. But, isn’t his post just… words? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/236 "2015-03-23T23:35:46Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > As for the OP, I’ve only ever heard the expression “well, that’s mighty white of you” used in a sarcastic, mocking context. When delivered as such, it’s pretty hard to take away a racist interpretation. It doesn’t really work in a text-only medium, though – you really need the tone of voice to properly convey it. I can see how it could be interpreted offensively, but I don’t think it’s intended that way. Same here, and it’s too useful an expression for me to toss away. “Awful white”… that’s just dumb. Who would use _that?_ ETA: huh, I see my opinion hasn’t changed since I commented in 2006. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/237 "2015-03-24T01:17:12Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/238 "2015-03-24T03:04:11Z")
You know what is awfully white? Lecturing people on politically correct terminology over the internet. Must be in the top 10 by now, after stealing other people’s land and having terrible taste in music. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/239 "2015-03-24T03:39:48Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > You know what is awfully white? Marshmallows? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/240 "2015-03-24T07:13:17Z")
When I say “That’s mighty white of you”, I’m inevitably referring to the colour of said person’s robes and hood. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=13)