# Don't say "That's awful white of you," please. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941 "2006-03-03T19:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/21 "2006-03-03T20:27:19Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > At least it’s better then the horribly self-hating, “Act your age, not your color.” Now, everyone who has never heard that before, pretend that you still haven’t. I’m embarrased that it’s ever been uttered by anyone in earnest. I can say I’ve never heard that, the closest I’ve heard was ‘act your age, not your shoe size.’, or ‘not your IQ’ (I suppose to say that the person in question is of very low intelligence). I don’t think I would even understand what someone meant by ‘act your age not your color.’ hmm ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/22 "2006-03-03T20:27:35Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > As I said, using it ironically is also using it as a compliment, just with sarcasm to indicate the opposite of the definition is what you meant. You’re still using the same definition, though. Well, that’s fine if that’s how you feel. I’m not offended by it though. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/23 "2006-03-03T20:27:57Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > As I said, using it ironically is also using it as a compliment, just with sarcasm to indicate the opposite of the definition is what you meant. You’re still using the same definition, though. by using it ironically, you’re ridiculing the the phrase’s original intended meaning. since when is ridiculing racism racist? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/24 "2006-03-03T20:28:01Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > I would say it still is in that context, because it still uses the same underlying logic. Even if what the person is doing is not very “white,” despite the fact that he’s a racist. > > … > > That’s how I’ve heard it used, as well. That’s what bothers me. The thing about sarcasm is, you can’t make something mean the opposite of what its supposed to mean until you agree on what it’s supposed to mean. > > … > > As I said, using it ironically is also using it as a compliment, just with sarcasm to indicate the opposite of the definition is what you meant. You’re still using the same definition, though. I have to admit, I find your logic here baffling. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/25 "2006-03-03T20:28:17Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > But you’re not black either. You’re not the person being being compared by implication in the expression. But how do you know that the expression really has anything to do with white or black _people_? Color has symbolism and meaning that reaches far beyond its use in categorizing human ethnicity. As I said, I wouldn’t _use_ the expression because I don’t want to be misunderstood, but I wouldn’t automatically assume someone is racist if they say it. I would, however, consider them just a bit clueless and behind the times. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/26 "2006-03-03T20:30:09Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > As I said, using it ironically is also using it as a compliment, just with sarcasm to indicate the opposite of the definition is what you meant. You’re still using the same definition, though. Huh, no it’s not a compliment. Okay, say you have someone saying, “I’m not racist, some of my best friends are black.” I reply with a very sarcastic, “Gee, that’s mighty white of you.” Meaning basically, “you’re a fucking tool.” How is that a compliment? ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/27 "2006-03-03T20:30:35Z")
My mental response to the OP was something like, “Um, yeah, but it’s not like anyone actually says that anymore.” As I read the thread, this quickly changed to, "Holy shit! You mean people still _say_ things like that? In public?! :eek: :eek: " ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/28 "2006-03-03T20:31:27Z")
> [@Greathouse](#): > > Actually, that’s the only way I have ever heard it used. > > Someone offers a local redneck a smoke, his reply may actually be to say “Thanks. That’s mighty white of you.” > > I don’t hear it as often as I used to, but it is still the only way I’ve ever heard it used. Weird. You know, some of us new-southerners tend to use a lot of those old phrases ironically. I guess I forget that there are still a bunch of idiots out there who use those phrases sincerely. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/29 "2006-03-03T20:33:38Z")
I heard it for the very first time quite recently, and I found it kind of unpleasant. I had to try to figure out what it meant, and the only possible interpretation I could come up with was a racist one. So please don’t use it. Even if you don’t mean it to be racist, some people (like me) will probably think it is. Err on the safe side. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/30 "2006-03-03T20:39:52Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Huh, no it’s not a compliment. Okay, say you have someone saying, “I’m not racist, some of my best friends are black.” > > I reply with a very sarcastic, “Gee, that’s mighty white of you.” > > Meaning basically, “you’re a fucking tool.” > > How is that a compliment? Once again: if you say “Gee, that’s mighty generous of you” in a sarcastic tone of voice, you are agreeing on the definition of generous, and that generous is a good thing to be. Your sarcasm indicates that the individual is actually the opposite of generous. You’re doing the same thing when you say, “That’s mighty white of you.” ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/31 "2006-03-03T20:43:00Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > You were alive in the 40’s and you _still_ knee-jerk balk when someone questions behavior or ideas that you once thought of as normal and acceptable? It doesn’t matter if it was common - it’s still blatantly, obviously racist phrase, if used genuinely- and pointing out that it was used in a small town in Texas back in the 50’s doesn’t help your case at all. I don’t understand why you think I am knee-jerk balking, whatever that might mean. I simply reported the usage I was familiar with and the time and place where it was used; I’ve never used the expression personally because a simple “thank you” is sufficient. And, I sort of don’t like your implication that everyone in small town Texas at that time was racist; most of my friends were decidedly not racist. Even so, some of them used the expression. I don’t object to anyone objecting to the expression; object all you please and consider it as racist as you like. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/32 "2006-03-03T20:50:19Z")
If someone says something racist, and you say, “That’s mighty white of you,” your implication is that they think that being white is the same as being noble, and you’re mocking them for that. If someone says something stupid (say, they claim that teenagers should be caned but probably not executed for sticking gum on paintings) and you say, “That’s mighty white of you,” you’re mocking them for thinking that what they say is noble when really it’s not. The problem is that you are equating generosity with whiteness in this circumstance. And I think it’s bizarre to believe that it doesn’t have origins in race. [At least one professor traces it back to early 20th century southern colloquialism](http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/10/messages/99.html). Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/33 "2006-03-03T20:50:59Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > But you’re not black either. You’re not the person being being compared by implication in the expression. You _did_ use the word “logic” in that very same post, didn’t you? Could you spell that out logically for me, please? I don’t see any comparison apart from that of the set of “not white.” At any rate, while I agree that in most circumstances the idiom should be avoided because of the unfortunate connotation that’s crept into it, it simply _isn’t_ a racial comment. (Of course, it may be _used_ with racist intent, but then you’ll find people using the word “niggardly” with racist intent over at stormfront, because they’re ignorant assholes. [Look](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=white): > [@](#): > > white > > 7: benevolent; without malicious intent; “white magic”; “a white lie”; “that’s white of you” > [@](#): > > [Webster’s](http://65.66.134.201/cgi-bin/webster/webster.exe?search_for_texts_web1828=white)a. white > > 1. Having the color of purity; pure; clean; free from spot; as white robed innocence. > > 2. Pure; unblemished. > > No whiter page than Addisons remains. > > 1. In a scriptural sense, purified from sin; sanctified. Psalm 51. The author of the psalm who wrote “Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow,” was not thinking of skin colour. There is no self-loathing there. “White” has this non-racial sense. I think it’s better if we work towards learning not to think of people as “white” (which they generally aren’t) or “black” (which they aren’t either,) and stop placing any importance on insignificant genetic variants. Still, in practice, I can’t imagine using the phrase except to convey irony. Sometimes connotation overpowers denotation. > [@saoirse](#): > > The thing about sarcasm is, you can’t make something mean the opposite of what its supposed to mean until you agree on what it’s supposed to mean. Words can have several meanings, and irony can exploit that. Ironically saying “That’s white of you,” can play with both meanings. It’s like saying that Keanu Reeves gave an “incredible” performance as Jonathon Harker. Absolutely unbelievable. With a very general adjective, context counts. “Hot” and “cold” can both be positive, negative or neutral when applied to people, depending on context. So can “white” and “black.” People used to be referred to as “yellow,” or “red.” without raising any hackles. (And in some cases still are.) But someone can be derogatively referred to as “yellow” without casting any aspersions on asian people. Different sense – no need to take offense. Far better if we just recognized that people aren’t black, yellow, white, red, or brown, and there’s little utility in keeping these pigeonholes. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/34 "2006-03-03T20:52:24Z")
This season’s Fruit of the Loom slogan, “that’s tidy white of you”? Still acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/35 "2006-03-03T20:59:24Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > If someone says something racist, and you say, “That’s mighty white of you,” your implication is that they think that being white is the same as being noble, and you’re mocking them for that. So if I use the phrase to mock someone’s racism, how am I being racist? Again, if it’s used ironically, how can it be racist? > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > And I think it’s bizarre to believe that it doesn’t have origins in race. [At least one professor traces it back to early 20th century southern colloquialism](http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/10/messages/99.html). yeah, gotta agree. I am even defending using the phrase (ironically), but I’ve never thought of it as having anything other than racial conotations. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/36 "2006-03-03T21:13:21Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Once again: if you say “Gee, that’s mighty generous of you” in a sarcastic tone of voice, you are agreeing on the definition of generous, and that generous is a good thing to be. Your sarcasm indicates that the individual is actually the opposite of generous. You’re doing the same thing when you say, “That’s mighty white of you.” Okay, I see where you’re coming from now. I still read the phrase “my way” though (and I’m not white, and I don’t think being white is a virtue). **whole bean** , maybe I’m reading it wrong, but I’m sure that first quote says the same thing your’e saying. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/37 "2006-03-03T21:14:00Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Once again: if you say “Gee, that’s mighty generous of you” in a sarcastic tone of voice, you are agreeing on the definition of generous, and that generous is a good thing to be. Your sarcasm indicates that the individual is actually the opposite of generous. You’re doing the same thing when you say, “That’s mighty white of you.” That’s a very poor equivalence. When used as **Guin** described, the reversal of meaning is much more subtle. Rather than suggesting that the person isn’t really acting “white,” it subverts the meaning of the word “white,” as traditionally used in the phrase. The irony lies in the implication that acting “white” means acting in a paternalistic, racist fashion. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/38 "2006-03-03T21:19:02Z")
Go figure. When I was growing up, the phrase was “that’s mighty wide of you.” You know, a play on “that’s mighty _big_ of you”? Therefore, I blame this current tempest in a teapot on poor enunciation. Problem solved, case closed. (Besides, when you come to think about it, “white” makes no sense at all.) ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/39 "2006-03-03T21:19:02Z")
> [@Omega Glory](#): > > Okay, I see where you’re coming from now. I still read the phrase “my way” though (and I’m not white, and I don’t think being white is a virtue). > > **whole bean** , maybe I’m reading it wrong, but I’m sure that first quote says the same thing your’e saying. work long, brain slow, eyes tired, stomach need beer. I think you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/40 "2006-03-03T21:23:20Z")
> [@whole bean](#): > > work long, brain slow, eyes tired, stomach need beer. I think you’re right. 😃 No problem! I think it’s a fine usage to mock someone for being a racial supremacist; I think that using it unironically is a sign of being a racial supremacist; but I think that using it ironically when not mocking someone for being a racial supremacist is problematic. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=3)