# Don't say "That's awful white of you," please. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941 "2006-03-03T19:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/41 "2006-03-03T21:28:29Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > You _did_ use the word “logic” in that very same post, didn’t you? Could you spell that out logically for me, please? > > I don’t see any comparison apart from that of the set of “not white.” > [@LouisB](#): > > Back in small town Texas, in the 1940s and 1950s, I heard the expression “That’s mighty white of you” many times, always as an alternate form of “thank you” for a favor or a helping hand. I don’t believe that there were many Indians living in Texas then > [@](#): > > “White” has this non-racial sense. I don’t think that’s how it’s used here. If you do, then feel free to think that. I can’t convince you otherwise. > [@](#): > > Words can have several meanings, and irony can exploit that. Ironically saying “That’s white of you,” can play with both meanings. But when you use it as an ironic insult, you are adopting one particular meaning, and then inverting it. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/42 "2006-03-03T21:30:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s a very poor equivalence. When used as **Guin** described, the reversal of meaning is much more subtle. Rather than suggesting that the person isn’t really acting “white,” it subverts the meaning of the word “white,” as traditionally used in the phrase. The irony lies in the implication that acting “white” means acting in a paternalistic, racist fashion. The idea that “acting white” means anything at all is racial essentialism. If you think there is a white way to act, then the expression probably doesn’t bother you. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/43 "2006-03-03T21:35:01Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I don’t understand why you think I am knee-jerk balking, whatever that might mean. I simply reported the usage I was familiar with and the time and place where it was used; I’ve never used the expression personally because a simple “thank you” is sufficient. And, I sort of don’t like your implication that everyone in small town Texas at that time was racist; most of my friends were decidedly not racist. Even so, some of them used the expression. > > I don’t object to anyone objecting to the expression; object all you please and consider it as racist as you like. Since, if the “white” in that phrase is racial, the rascist connotation of the idiom is immediately, unambiguously evident upon the slightest of inspection, your balking at objection towards it has to be knee-jerk. Considering criticism to be “excessively PC” when its aimed towards a form a bigotry that you view as normal is common, because it implies you (or your peers) were “wrong” for all these years, which is painful. It’s ironic you’d call critics of the phrase excessively PC and then get offended when I point out to you that “1940’s-1950’s”, “small-town”, and “Texas” aren’t qualifiers you’d want to use all at once to describe behavior as not being racist. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/44 "2006-03-03T21:35:05Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > If someone says something racist, and you say, “That’s mighty white of you,” your implication is that they think that being white is the same as being noble, and you’re mocking them for that. > > If someone says something stupid (say, they claim that teenagers should be caned but probably not executed for sticking gum on paintings) and you say, “That’s mighty white of you,” you’re mocking them for thinking that what they say is noble when really it’s not. I agree that the first usage doesn’t show racism, except that it is the only way I can think of that it wouldn’t be offensive, and extremely rare. Also, it doesn’t make fun of racism so much as it makes fun of a racist. > [@](#): > > The problem is that you are equating generosity with whiteness in this circumstance. > [@whole bean](#): > > replace it with, “how gracious of you,” said sarcastically. And I think it’s bizarre to believe that it doesn’t have origins in race. [At least one professor traces it back to early 20th century southern colloquialism](http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/10/messages/99.html). Daniel [/QUOTE] > [@whole bean](#): > > replace it with, “how gracious of you,” said sarcastically. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/45 "2006-03-03T21:36:00Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Once again: if you say “Gee, that’s mighty generous of you” in a sarcastic tone of voice, you are agreeing on the definition of generous, and that generous is a good thing to be. Your sarcasm indicates that the individual is actually the opposite of generous. You’re doing the same thing when you say, “That’s mighty white of you.” No, you’re not. Are you being deliberately obtuse? If you sarcastically acuse a racist of being “white”, you’re not saying he is in fact “black”. That’d just be dumb. You’re using a racist phrase mockingly to belittle a racist. If you’re being bossy, and I roll my eyes and say “Ja wohl, mein kommandant” and fire off a Nazi salute, am I accusing you of not being like a Nazi? Sarcasm doesn’t necessarily mean the literal opposite is true. (Are we sure this phrase is racist? It sounds like it, so I agree it’s best avoided, but I’m curious if it really originally referred to skin color or a more metaphorical moral “purity” thing) ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/46 "2006-03-03T21:36:12Z")
**saoirse** , do you feel the same way about the expression, “call a spade a spade”? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/47 "2006-03-03T21:39:46Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > The idea that “acting white” means anything at all is racial essentialism. If you think there is a white way to act, then the expression probably doesn’t bother you. Which is precisely the attitude being mocked when people use the phrase ironically. So again, why is it offensive when used in that manner? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/48 "2006-03-03T21:41:53Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > No, you’re not. Are you being deliberately obtuse? > > If you sarcastically acuse a racist of being “white”, you’re not saying he is in fact “black”. That’d just be dumb. You’re using a racist phrase mockingly to belittle a racist. No, I’m not. I’m not saying the implication is that the person is black, but that they are not demonstrating the traits traditionally associated with being white. I should ask you, though, what do you think it m,eans when someone says, “That’s awful white of you?” Sarcastically, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/49 "2006-03-03T21:42:55Z")
Sorry, I meant no, I’m not being obtuse. Using the expression **is** being racist to make fun of a racist. That’s the problem I have with it. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/50 "2006-03-03T21:44:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Which is precisely the attitude being mocked when people use the phrase ironically. So again, why is it offensive when used in that manner? Because in order to use it ironically, you have to agree that the person could be “acting white,” but is not. Again, it doesn’t mock racism; it mocks a racist. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/51 "2006-03-03T21:45:30Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > **saoirse** , do you feel the same way about the expression, “call a spade a spade”? Well, I don’t use it, but I don’t know if it’s racist. To be perfectly honest, I am busy enough discussing just one racially charged expression, so I’d rather not start on that one just now. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/52 "2006-03-03T21:51:32Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Because in order to use it ironically, you have to agree that the person could be “acting white,” but is not. Again, it doesn’t mock racism; it mocks a racist. No, you don’t, because if you’re using it ironically, you’re mocking the entire concept behind the phrase’s original conception. That’s what makes it ironic. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/53 "2006-03-03T21:54:31Z")
[This says the first recorded use is in 1913](http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorw.htm). Re citations earliest origin appear to be rooted less in a direct racial differentiation between American blacks & whites and more in cultural distinctions made between Europeans (honest) and non-Europeans (cheats) and the interpersonal ethics involved in transactions. The phase may actually have British colonial roots. > [@](#): > > White of You > Often phrases like call a spade a spade or words like niggard are mistakenly given racist etymologies. It is easy to understand why these mistakes are made in our race-conscious society, although it often seems as if I am battling the forces of ill-informed political correctness to preserve the right to use these words and phrases. Sometimes though, words and phrases do indeed have origins rooted in racism. And the phrase that’s white of you is one of these. > > The use of white man, meaning an honorable or square-dealing person dates to 1877 and is an Americanism. The implication is that non-Europeans are not honest or square. The phrase white of you is first recorded by Edith Wharton in 1913 . > [@](#): > > THAT’S MIGHTY WHITE OF YOU! began according to Partridge’s ‘Dictionary of Catch phrases’ as a complement meaning that’s very decent, generous, forgiving, obliging, fair, etc. of you, or as one source on the web said “Thank you for being fair.” The phrase was used in the U.S. from the early 20th century and in the U.K. since the 1930s. It is not certain exactly where the phrase originated, but the two possibilities proposed are the southern U.S. and the colonies of the British Empire ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/54 "2006-03-03T21:54:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, you don’t, because if you’re using it ironically, you’re mocking the entire concept behind the phrase’s original conception. That’s what makes it ironic. Well, again, if you sarcastically say “That’s mighy generous of you,” you’re not undermining the definition of generous. You’re accepting the definition, and inverting it for the pruposes of describing the person you’re addressing. But in order for the irony to work, you must also acknowledge the surface meaning of the word, as the definition that would be ordinarily applied. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/55 "2006-03-03T21:57:20Z")
> [@](#): > > THAT’S MIGHTY WHITE OF YOU! … the southern U.S. and **the colonies of the British Empire** (bolding mine) My apologies to **Anaamika.** I had thought it was an entirely American product. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/56 "2006-03-03T22:01:29Z")
[A sample might help:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7153564&postcount=9) > [@eleanorigby](#): > > The mentally ill really don’t deserve this slam, dear Martin --this is not white of you. I think we can all agree that **eleanor** was not using this expression to mock Martin for being a racist (if she was, I apologize). Therefore, the gist of her phrase is that his mocking the homeless is not noble. The problem is that her phrase equates “white” with “noble.” That’s no good, given the phrase’s history. I’ve heard it used in a similar way, and indeed I’ve had to bite it back. Say I’m discussing politics with someone, and they say, “I don’t think we should pay taxes for animal shelters, but I’m still humane: a quick bullet to the head of a stray animal is plenty humane!” There might be a temptation to respond with, “Well, that’s mighty white of you.” Since I’m not sarcastically suggesting that they’re a white supremacist, what am I suggesting there? I’m suggesting that they’re not white, i.e., not noble. And that’s an icky equation, so I bite it back. > [@Gadarene](#): > > saoirse, do you feel the same way about the expression, “call a spade a spade”? [That’s different](http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19970115) > [@](#): > > To call a spade a spade, which means, ironically for this discussion, ‘to speak plainly and bluntly; to speak without euphemisms’, is first found in Ancient Greece. > … > My favorite English example: > > Cecily: When I see a spade I call it a spade. > Gwendolen: I am glad to say I have never seen a spade. It is obvious that our social spheres have been widely different. > > –Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest > > Spade meaning ‘a black person’ is far more recent; it is first found in the early twentieth century. An expression that has no racial origins is far less problematic (see “niggardly”). That doesn’t mean it’s completely unproblematic, however: if you’re a competent speaker and want to make sure your audience gets your message without any unintended connotations, you ought to take their possible misconstruals into consideration, and decide whether choosing a specific word or phrase is worth the risk that they’ll not understand what you mean. That’s not an ethical matter: it’s a pragmatic matter. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/57 "2006-03-03T22:07:35Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > I don’t think that’s how it’s used here. If you do, then feel free to think that. I can’t convince you otherwise. You might, if you offered some reasoning for your assumption that the phrase has a racist origin. My reason for thinking that it doesn’t is that the english word “white” has carried that precise connotation of “honourable” for hundreds of years, and the idiom contains no modifiers to indicate that is connected to race, and nowhere else is it used as an abstracted qualitative sign with a racial sense. The usage doesn’t even seem to fit the details of the dichotomy of race stereotypes of the time, and isn’t applied to the most common superlatives where racists held that whites held an advantage over blacks. How is starting with the premise that it’s a racist phrase and ignoring everything that suggests it’s race-neutral going to get you anywhere except into a circular argument? As for “calling a spade a ‘spade’,” it should be noted additionally that the phrase is based on the fact that most people who don’t know any better call a spade a ‘shovel.’" You won’t get very far trying to dig a hole with a shovel. Small shovels were commonly used in the home, whether in pantry or in the coalshed – and looked similar enough that when urban people saw spades they called them “shovels,” not knowing the proper term. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/58 "2006-03-03T22:07:47Z")
**Daniel,** I was really hoping that this not be a referendum on whether eleanor is a good person or not. **Gadarene,** I also don’t want a referendum on whether I am a hypocrite, or gibbering idiot. A stopped clock is right twice a day. I have an ex-brother-in-law who is openly racist, and uses the expression ironically. If he believes that you’re not dealing with him squarely, he’ll say “that’s mighty white of you” in a sarcastic tone. Racists do understand sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/59 "2006-03-03T22:10:26Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > You might, if you offered some reasoning for your assumption that the phrase has a racist origin. Or, as it turns out, **astro** might. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/60 "2006-03-03T22:10:47Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > You might, if you offered some reasoning for your assumption that the phrase has a racist origin. See post # 53. They’re coming fast & furious here, it probably wasn’t up when you sent this. > [@](#): > > As for “calling a spade a ‘spade’,” it should be noted additionally that the phrase is based on the fact that most people who don’t know any better call a spade a ‘shovel.’" You won’t get very far trying to dig a hole with a shovel. Small shovels were commonly used in the home, whether in pantry or in the coalshed – and looked similar enough that when urban people saw spades they called them “shovels,” not knowing the proper term. That’s fine, but as I said I am quite busy enough the “white of you,” and can’t discuss that one right now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=4)