# Don't say "That's awful white of you," please. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941 "2006-03-03T19:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/61 "2006-03-03T22:11:47Z")
**Larry:** > [@](#): > > My reason for thinking that it doesn’t is that the english word “white” has carried that precise connotation of “honourable” for hundreds of years I’m with **Larry**. I’m not suggesting you’re a hypocrite, **saoirse** ; it’s just that I don’t think of racist connotations when I hear the offending phrase. Just as I don’t think the adjective “black-hearted” is racist. Now, it may well be that “that’s mighty white of you” has racist origins, but I’d venture that many people who hear the phrase don’t make that mental leap as an initial matter, if at all. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/62 "2006-03-03T22:13:31Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > **Daniel,** I was really hoping that this not be a referendum on whether eleanor is a good person or not. It absolutely should not. My approach is mainly pragmatic in her case: I think she (like Larry) may be unaware of the phrase’s history and how many people will interpret it, and they ought to be aware of these things. As a speaker or writer, it’s **always** good to have an idea of what your audience might bring to the table. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/63 "2006-03-03T22:14:33Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > **Larry:** > I’m with **Larry**. I’m not suggesting you’re a hypocrite, **saoirse** ; it’s just that I don’t think of racist connotations when I hear the offending phrase. Just as I don’t think the adjective “black-hearted” is racist. Now, it may well be that “that’s mighty white of you” has racist origins, but I’d venture that many people who hear the phrase don’t make that mental leap as an initial matter, if at all. And of course you know that in the language of my username, we’d be discussing whether the expression was offensive to blue people, right? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/64 "2006-03-03T22:15:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s a very poor equivalence. When used as **Guin** described, the reversal of meaning is much more subtle. Rather than suggesting that the person isn’t really acting “white,” it subverts the meaning of the word “white,” as traditionally used in the phrase. The irony lies in the implication that acting “white” means acting in a paternalistic, racist fashion. Yes, thank you. Let’s hope he doesn’t start on “pot calling the kettle black.” I think **saoirse** might be Omarosa in disguise. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/65 "2006-03-03T22:15:20Z")
Incidentally, I also avoid the phrases “Welching on a bet” or “I was gypped,” for similar reasons. By no means is everyone who uses these phrases a racist or racial supremacist, but the phrases do carry racist connotations for a lot of the audience, and they derive their initial meaning from odious racial stereotypes, and I can make my point with very similar words. So I use the synonyms instead. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/66 "2006-03-03T22:19:53Z")
One thing’s for sure: say “that’s mighty white of you” and the PC police will be all over you like white on rice. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/67 "2006-03-03T22:20:22Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Yes, thank you. > > Let’s hope he doesn’t start on “pot calling the kettle black.” I think **saoirse** might be Omarosa in disguise. As I said, I really don’t want to discuss other racially charged expressions. **astro’s** cite demonstrates that this particular expression was conceived in racism. I may very well be Omarosa in disguise, but that does not affect whether you should listen to my arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/68 "2006-03-03T22:21:22Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > As I said, I really don’t want to discuss other racially charged expressions. **astro’s** cite demonstrates that this particular expression was conceived in racism. > > I may very well be Omarosa in disguise, but that does not affect whether you should listen to my arguments. Oh for godsakes. The point is, “pot calling the kettle black” ISN’T racial at all. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/69 "2006-03-03T22:22:35Z")
**saoirse:** > [@](#): > > And of course you know that in the language of my username, we’d be discussing whether the expression was offensive to blue people, right? Nope, I had no idea. 🙂 How come? I do know that your name means Freedom, thanks to _Round Ireland With a Fridge_. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/70 "2006-03-03T22:23:18Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh for godsakes. The point is, “pot calling the kettle black” ISN’T racial at all. He knows, dear. That was his point. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/71 "2006-03-03T22:26:26Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh for godsakes. The point is, “pot calling the kettle black” ISN’T racial at all. Neither is “a pig in a poke.” I started a thread to discuss a phrase that **did** have a racist origin. If you like, I can start thread in MPSIMS to discuss phrases that aren’t racist at all. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/72 "2006-03-03T22:35:17Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > **saoirse:** > Nope, I had no idea. 🙂 How come? > > I do know that your name means Freedom, thanks to _Round Ireland With a Fridge_. 😃 In Irish, a person of African descent is a **gormán,** or blue person. **dubh,** black, describes someone who is malevolent or diabolical. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/73 "2006-03-03T22:36:42Z")
> [@](#): > > In Irish, a person of African descent is a gormán, or blue person. > > dubh, black, describes someone who is malevolent or diabolical. That solves the problem of connotation quite nicely. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/74 "2006-03-03T22:38:51Z")
Except, from reading the definition, it isn’t. > [@](#): > > THAT’S MIGHTY WHITE OF YOU! began according to Partridge’s ‘Dictionary of Catch phrases’ as a complement meaning that’s very decent, generous, forgiving, obliging, fair, etc. of you, or as one source on the web said **“Thank you for being fair.”** The phrase was used in the U.S. from the early 20th century and in the U.K. since the 1930s. It is not certain exactly where the phrase originated, but the two possibilities proposed are the southern U.S. and the colonies of the British Empire. Which is exactly the way I meant it, except as sarcastically as possible, when I used it [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7145814&postcount=251). I’m sorry you find it offensive, but it seems you’re going out of your way to do so. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/75 "2006-03-03T22:41:16Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > **Daniel,** I was really hoping that this not be a referendum on whether eleanor is a good person or not. **Gadarene,** I also don’t want a referendum on whether I am a hypocrite, or gibbering idiot. A stopped clock is right twice a day. Random thoughts: jeesh, go to the movies and see what happens while I’m gone! Well, if it does(become a referendum on me–and what the hell is that, anyway? Should I be banned for using a common English insult?), it will be because of posts like this one. Jesus-my name wasn’t even mentioned until well into the thread. Post away. You all delineating my supposed character here for good or for ill doesn’t change my RL one bit. I’d like to see someone try to stick the “racist” label on me–it won’t stick. To quote the master, **Cecil** , himself, you could find something suggestive in a dial tone! The color white has always been associated with purity and cleanliness–King Arthur’s shield was white, virgins wear white (note: does not denote sexual virginity, denotes new to marital status), nurses and doctors wore white (until we figured out that white shows dirt like crazy!), see such common phrases as “pure as the driven snow” etc. Not everything is racial. Ye gods-and here of all places! I assumed (wrongly, I see now), that folks here were intelligent and enlightened enough to realize that such a phrase would only be used ironically and to denigrate an opponent in the Pit. I am not the only poster to have used it. Frankly, all this to me is a tempest in a teapot. I used it as a disparaging remark to a pompous, bloviating Doper. **Frank** quasi-asked me to not use it and I reassured him. Then, **Starving Artist** condescended to me in such a way (somewhat tongue in cheek), in the same thread, that I couldn’t resist–my next use of the phrase was funny and skewered the whole thread. **SA** laughed, I laughed and the world was better for it, for about 30 seconds. And my use of it was NOT accusing **SA** or the focus of that thread of being racist–something I made quite clear. **SA** did not take it that way. I have no idea how **martin** took it. Perhaps he’ll weigh in here. I will not apologize for using idiomatic language in the appropriate way. I will not (unless mandated by a mod) refuse to use it as I see fit, here or elsewhere in my life. Oddly enough, it is only here where I have run into trouble with it. I have had black co-workers use it (in fun) to me and vice versa. I use it in the sense of “gracious” or “big”–as has been explained several times now. In case ya’ll think think that I’m going to bait people with it–rest assured. I am 1. not that immature and 2. not that wrapped up in SDMB to want to make that sort of name for myself. I don’t KNOW any rednecks (a loaded term all on its own, btw). I don’t know any white supremecists (that I know of). I DO know some racist people–and I use this phrase in reference to them(not in fun) quite a bit. It’s a freaking INSULT. It plays on the whole purity, noblesse oblige, lord in his mansion, farmer at the gate mentality. > [@](#): > > I have an ex-brother-in-law who is openly racist, and uses the expression ironically. If he believes that you’re not dealing with him squarely, he’ll say “that’s mighty white of you” in a sarcastic tone. Racists do understand sarcasm. I can’t help your BIL. But if we are to start censoring ourselves based on extended families, there is no end in sight for us. I do hope you call your BIL on his racist BS. I have done so with my (un) lovely BIL and he doesn’t like me anymore–boohoo. **Larry Mudd** -thank you for your cogent posts re this whole matter. I honestly think that this is some people looking to be offended. I dunno-I’ve been here awhile, and I’m amazed that people have been as nice to me as they have. I see people Pitted all the time for minor stuff-if this is my virgin Pitting, so be it. **Left Hand** --I am aware of the racial connotations–I posted as much in the other thread. However, to me, it is a subtext to a pithy and effective way to show contempt for another’s patronization. Since it is OBVIOUS in my posts that no such undertone is suggested, it peeves me a bit to be told that I may not be aware of same. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/76 "2006-03-03T22:41:34Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Except, from reading the definition, it isn’t. > > Which is exactly the way I meant it, except as sarcastically as possible, when I used it [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7145814&postcount=251). I’m sorry you find it offensive, but it seems you’re going out of your way to do so. Well, what did you want to communicate when you said, “Gee, how white of you?” How does it relate to whiteness? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/77 "2006-03-03T22:42:42Z")
My mother and I throw “that’s mighty white of you” back and forth every few months, typically in response to someone fishing for compliments after a fairly mundane accomplishment. It’s a useful turn of sarcastic phrase and I intend to keep using it. Probably only with Mom, though. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/78 "2006-03-03T22:45:02Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Well, what did you want to communicate when you said, “Gee, how white of you?” How does it relate to whiteness? It doesn’t! It’s just an insult! ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/79 "2006-03-03T22:45:56Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > The color white has always been associated with purity and cleanliness–King Arthur’s shield was white, virgins wear white (note: does not denote sexual virginity, denotes new to marital status), nurses and doctors wore white (until we figured out that white shows dirt like crazy!), see such common phrases as “pure as the driven snow” etc. > > Not everything is racial. From **astro’s** cite above: > [@](#): > > White of You > Often phrases like call a spade a spade or words like niggard are mistakenly given racist etymologies. It is easy to understand why these mistakes are made in our race-conscious society, although it often seems as if I am battling the forces of ill-informed political correctness to preserve the right to use these words and phrases. Sometimes though, words and phrases do indeed have origins rooted in racism. And the phrase that’s white of you is one of these. > > The use of white man, meaning an honorable or square-dealing person dates to 1877 and is an Americanism. The implication is that non-Europeans are not honest or square. The phrase white of you is first recorded by Edith Wharton in 1913 > > THAT’S MIGHTY WHITE OF YOU! began according to Partridge’s ‘Dictionary of Catch phrases’ as a complement meaning that’s very decent, generous, forgiving, obliging, fair, etc. of you, or as one source on the web said “Thank you for being fair.” The phrase was used in the U.S. from the early 20th century and in the U.K. since the 1930s. It is not certain exactly where the phrase originated, but the two possibilities proposed are the southern U.S. and the colonies of the British Empire Many things **are** racial. (ps: I really didn’t want to mention your name. It took a little verbal yoga, if not actual gymnastics, to avoid it in the OP). ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/80 "2006-03-03T22:47:43Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Well, what did you want to communicate when you said, “Gee, how white of you?” How does it relate to whiteness? What I wanted to communicate? That I thought he was being a controlling selfish prick. It doesn’t relate to “whiteness” so far as I know at all. It’s a phrase I picked up when I was in the military. I was helping a friend move a couch to a different room. She asked another person if he could help out with the cushions. He piled them on top of the couch and walked off. She shouted after him (very sarcastically) “Thanks, that’s mighty white of you!” I asked her what it meant and she said “the reverse of generous and helpful.” That was close to twenty years ago, and I’ve never heard it used in any other context. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=5)