# Don't say "That's awful white of you," please. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941 "2006-03-03T19:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/81 "2006-03-03T22:47:48Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > It doesn’t! It’s just an insult! Okay, how is it insulting? What in the phrase “How white of you” is insulting? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/82 "2006-03-03T22:48:55Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > What I wanted to communicate? That I thought he was being a controlling selfish prick. > It doesn’t relate to “whiteness” so far as I know at all. It’s a phrase I picked up when I was in the military. I was helping a friend move a couch to a different room. She asked another person if he could help out with the cushions. He piled them on top of the couch and walked off. She shouted after him (very sarcastically) “Thanks, that’s mighty white of you!” I asked her what it meant and she said “the reverse of generous and helpful.” That was close to twenty years ago, and I’ve never heard it used in any other context. And how does generosity and helpfulness relate to whiteness? How does selfishness? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/83 "2006-03-03T22:51:37Z")
> [@](#): > > What in the phrase “How white of you” is insulting? Can we agree that “white,” in a meaning divorced from race, connotes purity, honor, and goodness? If so, can we agree that “how white of you,” in a meaning divorced from race, could mean “how pure/honorable/good of you”? If so, can we agree that sarcasm is the use of words in a biting fashion to obviously convey the opposite of their usual meaning? If so, can we agree that “how white of you,” said sarcastically and in a meaning divorced from race, could mean “boy, you’re not pure or honorable or good at all, are ya”? ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/84 "2006-03-03T22:52:56Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > Since, if the “white” in that phrase is racial, the rascist connotation of the idiom is immediately, unambiguously evident upon the slightest of inspection, your balking at objection towards it has to be knee-jerk. Considering criticism to be “excessively PC” when its aimed towards a form a bigotry that you view as normal is common, because it implies you (or your peers) were “wrong” for all these years, which is painful. It’s ironic you’d call critics of the phrase excessively PC and then get offended when I point out to you that “1940’s-1950’s”, “small-town”, and “Texas” aren’t qualifiers you’d want to use all at once to describe behavior as not being racist. IF the “white” in that phrase is racial, etc., etc. But, what if the “white” in that phrase is NOT racial? What happens to your argument then? For the record, I have no doubt that it was originally racist—I simply think that it was in such common usage that the racial content was lost. I will admit to being a very non-subtle person; It is more than possible that the hidden meaning escaped me since I try to say what I mean and mean what I say. It has been a huge mistake that I attribute similar directness to others. As I said, I don’t use the expression now and didn’t use it then. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/85 "2006-03-03T22:56:13Z")
Good God! Mention my name–whyever not? Is this a passive-agressive Pitting? Do I rate special somehow? I mean, honestly–do you want me to say that showing some sort of bizarre discretion is white/gracious/big of you? It seems to me that you are almost baiting me to use it with the condescension! Yes, MANY things are indeed racial–but not ALL things and not ALL things ALL the time. I cannot help but roll my eyes over all of this. I find it very hard to believe that there is some Doper at home right now, crying because I used the prase “that’s white of you”. I find it even harder to believe that some here are so worked up about this. Or is this yet another example of Dopers beating a topic to death? This whole “if it’s got the word white or black in it, it must always be racial” premise is a crock. Guess the bad guys can’t wear black hats anymore, or the good guys white ones. Guess that yin/yang symbol would be better off red and green. No more white wedding dresses–gee, the grooms usually wear black. :eek: Can’t have that. And whatever will London do with all the zebra crossings–black and white stripes! The colonialist bastards. :rolleyes: I can see how it this could be an offensive phrase to some. WHICH IS WHY CONTEXT IS SO IMPORTANT AND SHOULD NOT BE OVERLOOKED. One could say that about almost any English phrase. When we converse, we must not only listen for content, but add context, intent and tone. Tone is missing here–but there are other BIG clues. Like me saying, “I don’t mean this in a racist way”. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/86 "2006-03-03T22:56:44Z")
> [@](#): > > White of You > Often phrases like call a spade a spade or words like niggard are mistakenly given racist etymologies. It is easy to understand why these mistakes are made in our race-conscious society, although it often seems as if I am battling the forces of ill-informed political correctness to preserve the right to use these words and phrases. Sometimes though, words and phrases do indeed have origins rooted in racism. And the phrase that’s white of you is one of these. > > The use of white man, meaning an honorable or square-dealing person dates to 1877 and is an Americanism. The implication is that non-Europeans are not honest or square. The phrase white of you is first recorded by Edith Wharton in 1913 > > THAT’S MIGHTY WHITE OF YOU! began according to Partridge’s ‘Dictionary of Catch phrases’ as a complement meaning that’s very decent, generous, forgiving, obliging, fair, etc. of you, or as one source on the web said “Thank you for being fair.” The phrase was used in the U.S. from the early 20th century and in the U.K. since the 1930s. It is not certain exactly where the phrase originated, but the two possibilities proposed are the southern U.S. and the colonies of the British Empire I’ve got this on Notepad, now. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/87 "2006-03-03T22:56:49Z")
As I said: I don’t relate it to whiteness at all. I took the person who defined it at her word (I’m trusting that way) and use it from time to time in a sarcastic manner. Could you explain where you’re going with these questions? It seems to me you find it racist, but ONLY racist toward black people. I’m not sure I understand that, either. I’m not trying to be obnoxious, I really am trying to understand. If it IS a racist statement (and I’m not saying it isn’t, just that I don’t see it), then why is it only racist toward black people? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/88 "2006-03-03T23:00:15Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Can we agree that “white,” in a meaning divorced from race, connotes purity, honor, and goodness? > > If so, can we agree that “how white of you,” in a meaning divorced from race, could mean “how pure/honorable/good of you”? > > If so, can we agree that sarcasm is the use of words in a biting fashion to obviously convey the opposite of their usual meaning? > > If so, can we agree that “how white of you,” said sarcastically and in a meaning divorced from race, could mean “boy, you’re not pure or honorable or good at all, are ya”? Thank you, for this is how I use it, always–but we seem to not want to be heard. To me, it has nothing to do with race at all. (I can easily see white supremicists trying to take over the phrase and corrupting it to fit their filthy agendas, and it looks like that was done, but this isn’t the Confederate flag or the swastika we’re talking about–it’s language, that ever changing, mutating creature.) ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/89 "2006-03-03T23:03:02Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Good God! Mention my name–whyever not? Is this a passive-agressive Pitting? Do I rate special somehow? I mean, honestly–do you want me to say that showing some sort of bizarre discretion is white/gracious/big of you? It seems to me that you are almost baiting me to use it with the condescension! No, I just want to focus on the phrase, and not the person using it. > [@](#): > > Yes, MANY things are indeed racial–but not ALL things and not ALL things ALL the time. No but this phrase is. > [@](#): > > I cannot help but roll my eyes over all of this. I find it very hard to believe that there is some Doper at home right now, crying because I used the prase “that’s white of you”. I find it even harder to believe that some here are so worked up about this. Or is this yet another example of Dopers beating a topic to death? I’m not crying, I am arguing that it is an offensive phrase. Use it if you like, but understand what you’re doing. > [@](#): > > This whole “if it’s got the word white or black in it, it must always be racial” premise is a crock. Guess the bad guys can’t wear black hats anymore, or the good guys white ones. Guess that yin/yang symbol would be better off red and green. No more white wedding dresses–gee, the grooms usually wear black. :eek: Can’t have that. And whatever will London do with all the zebra crossings–black and white stripes! The colonialist bastards. :rolleyes: I’ve got the cite on Notepad, but I just posted it above. > [@](#): > > I can see how it this could be an offensive phrase to some. WHICH IS WHY CONTEXT IS SO IMPORTANT AND SHOULD NOT BE OVERLOOKED. > > One could say that about almost any English phrase. When we converse, we must not only listen for content, but add context, intent and tone. Tone is missing here–but there are other BIG clues. Like me saying, “I don’t mean this in a racist way”. Saying “I don’t mean this in a racist way,” is not enough, if your’e using an expression created and steeped in racism. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/90 "2006-03-03T23:04:27Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > I’ve got this on Notepad, now. You have completely lost me. And all my childhood fears are coming to the fore. Is there a giant book out there, listing all my transgression and failings? This won’t be on them, I promise you. It is you who are insisting on a motivation and offense that is just not there. Why you feel this need to do so escapes me, but I’m sure you have good reasons of your own. Sorry for double post-this is moving fast. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/91 "2006-03-03T23:04:47Z")
**saoirse** , can you answer the four questions in my post? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/92 "2006-03-03T23:04:49Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > As I said: I don’t relate it to whiteness at all. > > I took the person who defined it at her word (I’m trusting that way) and use it from time to time in a sarcastic manner. > > Could you explain where you’re going with these questions? It seems to me you find it racist, but ONLY racist toward black people. I’m not sure I understand that, either. I’m not trying to be obnoxious, I really am trying to understand. If it IS a racist statement (and I’m not saying it isn’t, just that I don’t see it), then why is it only racist toward black people? As I said, I find it to be evidence of racial essentialism. If it doesn’t relate to whiteness, how does “white of you” communicate what you say the phrase means? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/93 "2006-03-03T23:05:57Z")
And using it in a sarcastic way, to MOCK the racism of the original statement. For godsakes, whatever you do, don’t ever read _A Modest Proposal_. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/94 "2006-03-03T23:06:01Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Can we agree that “white,” in a meaning divorced from race, connotes purity, honor, and goodness? > > If so, can we agree that “how white of you,” in a meaning divorced from race, could mean “how pure/honorable/good of you”? > > If so, can we agree that sarcasm is the use of words in a biting fashion to obviously convey the opposite of their usual meaning? > > If so, can we agree that “how white of you,” said sarcastically and in a meaning divorced from race, could mean “boy, you’re not pure or honorable or good at all, are ya”? If the expression were divorced from race, I would agree 100% However: > [@](#): > > White of You > Often phrases like call a spade a spade or words like niggard are mistakenly given racist etymologies. It is easy to understand why these mistakes are made in our race-conscious society, although it often seems as if I am battling the forces of ill-informed political correctness to preserve the right to use these words and phrases. Sometimes though, words and phrases do indeed have origins rooted in racism. And the phrase that’s white of you is one of these. > > The use of white man, meaning an honorable or square-dealing person dates to 1877 and is an Americanism. The implication is that non-Europeans are not honest or square. The phrase white of you is first recorded by Edith Wharton in 1913 > > THAT’S MIGHTY WHITE OF YOU! began according to Partridge’s ‘Dictionary of Catch phrases’ as a complement meaning that’s very decent, generous, forgiving, obliging, fair, etc. of you, or as one source on the web said “Thank you for being fair.” The phrase was used in the U.S. from the early 20th century and in the U.K. since the 1930s. It is not certain exactly where the phrase originated, but the two possibilities proposed are the southern U.S. and the colonies of the British Empire ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/95 "2006-03-03T23:08:28Z")
You actually didn’t answer the questions. I want to find out which ones you disagree with, specifically. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/96 "2006-03-03T23:08:53Z")
Steeped my ass. You would make a good tabloid journalist–use loaded language much? This phrase is hardly wearing white hoods and cloaks. Cut the melodrama, already. I am done here. This is ridiculous. I am sorry you are offended, but I will not forego using this phrase, if I see a fit for it. Alot of shit here offends me–and that is actually one of the beauties of the Dope. I have things to do in RL, like go pick up children. knock yourselves out. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/97 "2006-03-03T23:10:08Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And using it in a sarcastic way, to MOCK the racism of the original statement. > > For godsakes, whatever you do, don’t ever read _A Modest Proposal_. But “A Modest Proposal” (an essay goes in quotes; a book title goes in italics) is obviously not the same thing. It is a conceit developed to the point of absurdity. If you want to write an essay titled “That’s Mighy White of You,” and gradually epand on a racist notion until it is so absurd that it cannot be taken seriously, go ahead. That’s not what you’re doing when you use this expression, though. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/98 "2006-03-03T23:11:26Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Steeped my ass. You would make a good tabloid journalist–use loaded language much? This phrase is hardly wearing white hoods and cloaks. Cut the melodrama, already. > > I am done here. This is ridiculous. I am sorry you are offended, but I will not forego using this phrase, if I see a fit for it. Alot of shit here offends me–and that is actually one of the beauties of the Dope. > > I have things to do in RL, like go pick up children. knock yourselves out. Well, here is the cite, once more. > [@](#): > > White of You > Often phrases like call a spade a spade or words like niggard are mistakenly given racist etymologies. It is easy to understand why these mistakes are made in our race-conscious society, although it often seems as if I am battling the forces of ill-informed political correctness to preserve the right to use these words and phrases. Sometimes though, words and phrases do indeed have origins rooted in racism. And the phrase that’s white of you is one of these. > > The use of white man, meaning an honorable or square-dealing person dates to 1877 and is an Americanism. The implication is that non-Europeans are not honest or square. The phrase white of you is first recorded by Edith Wharton in 1913 > > THAT’S MIGHTY WHITE OF YOU! began according to Partridge’s ‘Dictionary of Catch phrases’ as a complement meaning that’s very decent, generous, forgiving, obliging, fair, etc. of you, or as one source on the web said “Thank you for being fair.” The phrase was used in the U.S. from the early 20th century and in the U.K. since the 1930s. It is not certain exactly where the phrase originated, but the two possibilities proposed are the southern U.S. and the colonies of the British Empire ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/99 "2006-03-03T23:12:36Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > As I said, I find it to be evidence of racial essentialism. > > If it doesn’t relate to whiteness, how does “white of you” communicate what you say the phrase means? Again, I use it in the manner it was defined to me: as an insult, the opposite of generous and helpful, said in as sarcastic a manner as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/100 "2006-03-03T23:13:39Z")
Yes, and it was once used by racists. Now, it’s being turned around to insult racists. It’s called “reclaiming”. Just like using “sieg heil!” to insult someone you think is being a racist dickweed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=6)