# Don't say "That's awful white of you," please. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941 "2006-03-03T19:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/101 "2006-03-03T23:15:03Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > I should ask you, though, what do you think it m,eans when someone says, “That’s awful white of you?” Sarcastically, I mean. That they’re accusing me of being the sort of person that would use the phrase “that’s awful white of you” sincerely. It doesn’t endorse the phrase at all, quite to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/102 "2006-03-03T23:15:46Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > You actually didn’t answer the questions. I want to find out which ones you disagree with, specifically. > [@](#): > > Can we agree that “white,” in a meaning divorced from race, connotes purity, honor, and goodness? It can, but I don’t see how we can divorce it from race. > [@](#): > > If so, can we agree that “how white of you,” in a meaning divorced from race, could mean “how pure/honorable/good of you”? But the expression is racist in its origins. > [@](#): > > If so, can we agree that sarcasm is the use of words in a biting fashion to obviously convey the opposite of their usual meaning? > > If so, can we agree that “how white of you,” said sarcastically and in a meaning divorced from race, could mean “boy, you’re not pure or honorable or good at all, are ya”? These are dependent upon an affirmative answer to the second question. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/103 "2006-03-03T23:17:51Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > That they’re accusing me of being the sort of person that would use the phrase “that’s awful white of you” sincerely. > > It doesn’t endorse the phrase at all, quite to the contrary. Somewhere, lost in the uncharted depths of this thread, is my post acknowleding that in that particular, narrow usage, in dorect response to a racist comment, it does in fact undermone the racism of the original meaning. I would tell you to look for it, but I’m afraid we’d never hear from you again. ---
**Author:** ![KAndre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@KAndre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KAndre)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/104 "2006-03-03T23:19:19Z")
Well, I admit I always associated the phrase “That’s mighty white of you” like “I’m free, white and over twenty-one” with American literature of first half of the 20th Century, and that the underlying reason was race associated - in that just being a “white” person was a good thing, with the other side of that coin implied. I personally would not use it with someone I didn’t know well, but I’m a forty-something black female. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/105 "2006-03-03T23:19:43Z")
Goodness me, what a storm in a teacup. Surely that’s enough unpleasantness and bad temper. Let’s all treat each other with generosity, kindness, forebearance and honour. I mean, come on, play the white man chaps! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/106 "2006-03-03T23:19:56Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Again, I use it in the manner it was defined to me: as an insult, the opposite of generous and helpful, said in as sarcastic a manner as possible. Right, and probably never thought about why it would mean what it does. But now think about it. How does whiteness relate to generosity, or the other things you mentioned earlier? ---
**Author:** ![KAndre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@KAndre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KAndre)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/107 "2006-03-03T23:21:18Z")
Well, I admit I always associated the phrase “That’s mighty white of you” with ones like “I’m free, white and over twenty-one” in American literature of the first half of the 20th Century, and that the underlying reason was race associated - in that just being a “white” person was a good thing, with the other side of that coin implied. I personally would not use it with someone I didn’t know well, but I’m a forty-something black female. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/108 "2006-03-03T23:21:45Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Goodness me, what a storm in a teacup. Surely that’s enough unpleasantness and bad temper. Let’s all treat each other with generosity, kindness, forebearance and honour. > > I mean, come on, play the white man chaps! 😃 You are not helping. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/109 "2006-03-03T23:24:02Z")
Apparently, it’s been defined already in this thread. But if you want to draw parallels: White hats=good guys, black hats=bad guys. Racist? Have you seen the movie Boomerang? Martin Lawrence, Eddie Murphy and David Allen Grier are playing pool. Martin Lawrence starts to go off on a tangent about how 8 ball is really a racist parallel about how white men are afraid that black men are going to steal white women. For some reason, this thread reminds me of that conversation an awful lot. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/110 "2006-03-03T23:26:36Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Apparently, it’s been defined already in this thread. But if you want to draw parallels: > White hats=good guys, black hats=bad guys. Racist? > > Have you seen the movie Boomerang? Martin Lawrence, Eddie Murphy and David Allen Grier are playing pool. Martin Lawrence starts to go off on a tangent about how 8 ball is really a racist parallel about how white men are afraid that black men are going to steal white women. For some reason, this thread reminds me of that conversation an awful lot. I really don’t want to post the cite again. The black hats and the eight ball are not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about this phrase, which is actually racist in its origins. The cite is posted above. Many times. As I said, I am quite busy enough with this expression; you will have to find someone else to discuss those with you. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/111 "2006-03-03T23:29:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Can we agree that “white,” in a meaning divorced from race, connotes purity, honor, and goodness? > [@](#): > > It can, but I don’t see how we can divorce it from race. Really? You don’t think that white has a connotation of purity entirely separate from its association with race? You think that when people use the term “white knight” to mean someone who is honorable, they’re being racist? I’m staggered. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/112 "2006-03-03T23:31:34Z")
And I’m saying, I’ve read that definition several times. In a nutshell, it says it means “fair.” “Fair” also used to mean blond haired and also “beautiful.” About the ONLY way you could possibly twist this phrase to have the racist connotations you want it to mean, is because the definition is said to come from _either_ the southern US (which is what I’m assuming) or the UK. So, because this phrase may have possibly come from somewhere in the south, we are automatically assuming it’s racist? I’d say I’m not the one with race issues. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/113 "2006-03-03T23:31:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m talking about this phrase, which is actually racist in its origins. If a phrase is racist in its origins, does that mean it’s racist in its current usage? Particularly when the key word in the phrase has another, nonracist connotation that makes at least as much sense in that context? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/114 "2006-03-03T23:34:38Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > You are not helping. Am I not? Surely my meaning was obvious - that this antique phrase once represented an appeal to ethics and standards chiefly associated with white men, but that no-one who isn’t a complete :wally could possibly use it with sincerity nowadays. Hence, any appeal from _me_ at least to “play the white man” must be firmly tongue in cheek. You may know very well to what standard of behaviour I am appealing; you must surely, unless you have cast me as an utter cad and bounder, know that I do not _genuinely_ associate those values exclusively with white people, or even especially. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/115 "2006-03-03T23:35:03Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > You are not helping. Well, it’s his burden to keep trying. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/116 "2006-03-03T23:39:03Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Well, it’s his burden to keep trying. > > 😃 Actually, I don’t think it is, in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/117 "2006-03-03T23:39:46Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Well, again, if you sarcastically say “That’s mighy generous of you,” you’re not undermining the definition of generous. You’re accepting the definition, and inverting it for the pruposes of describing the person you’re addressing. But in order for the irony to work, you must also acknowledge the surface meaning of the word, as the definition that would be ordinarily applied. As I’ve already said, your analogy simply doesn’t work. The two sentences are not comparable in the way you want to compare them. The sentence “That’s mighty generous of you!” does not contain a disputatious idea. There is no controversy over wether generosity is a positive trait. There’s no reasonable way to attach ironic meaning to the word “generous” itself in that sentence. The only place irony makes sense in that sentence is over wether or not the trait applies to the person being described. In the sentence “That’s mighty white of you!” the word white, is used in a metaphorical way, and there’s obvious disagreement (less so now than fifty years ago, thankfully) over the appropriateness of that metaphor. In this case, the irony can apply just as easily to the meaning intended by the word “white” as it can to the appropriatness of applying that label to the person being described. Incidentally, what the hell is “racial essentialism?” I’ve never heard that phrase before. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/118 "2006-03-03T23:40:29Z")
Well, _I’m_ gonna keep trying. White wedding dresses: virginal, or racist? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/119 "2006-03-03T23:41:27Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Actually, I don’t think it is, in this case. Geez, lighten up, willya? [sub]oops![/sub] ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/120 "2006-03-03T23:42:28Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > If a phrase is racist in its origins, does that mean it’s racist in its current usage? Particularly when the key word in the phrase has another, nonracist connotation that makes at least as much sense in that context? It certainly does, and I’m sorry if I made it seem like “white” can only mean Caucasian. You can use “White Knight,” or a host of other expressions without referring to race. It’s this one that I’m talking about, though. I do not believe you can separate this expression’s origins from its usage. Perhaps when more time has passed between its currency as a racist expression, and the meaning you want to ascribe to it, it will not be offensive. Not now, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=7)