# Don't say "That's awful white of you," please. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941 "2006-03-03T19:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/121 "2006-03-03T23:45:04Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > It certainly does, and I’m sorry if I made it seem like “white” can only mean Caucasian. You can use “White Knight,” or a host of other expressions without referring to race. It’s this one that I’m talking about, though. I do not believe you can separate this expression’s origins from its usage. Perhaps when more time has passed between its currency as a racist expression, and the meaning you want to ascribe to it, it will not be offensive. Not now, though. Sure you can. **Menocchio** explained how you can. It’s not our fault that you’re stupid. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/122 "2006-03-03T23:45:49Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Well, here is the cite, once more. Do you know-I can read. I have read and reread that–reposting it doesn’t change my stance or my opinion. I am sorry that you cannot seem to see the positive use this phrase has. And just what the hell is “Racial essentialism”? That sound like pure BS to me. Completely anecdotal support: just asked my friend Stephanie (who is black! :eek: her son and my son are friends! :eek: ) if she has ever heard the phrase used as a racial epithet. She says no-she has heard it used as a snide way of belittling someone. Yep, anecdotes don’t mean shit here, but I just thought I’d add that in. Her parents use the phrase as a damning, blighting remark–just like me. Food for thought, indeed. Bottom line: I do not agree with your interpretation. If a mod calls for the banning of the phrase–I will stop using it here. I do have a rather subversive, devious idea, though. How’s about I just say it’s fuschia of you, darling and let it be. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/123 "2006-03-03T23:46:18Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Well, _I’m_ gonna keep trying. White wedding dresses: virginal, or racist? Blatantly prejudicial toward the hymenally challenged! ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/124 "2006-03-03T23:47:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > As I’ve already said, your analogy simply doesn’t work. The two sentences are not comparable in the way you want to compare them. The sentence “That’s mighty generous of you!” does not contain a disputatious idea. There is no controversy over wether generosity is a positive trait. There’s no reasonable way to attach ironic meaning to the word “generous” itself in that sentence. The only place irony makes sense in that sentence is over wether or not the trait applies to the person being described. > > In the sentence “That’s mighty white of you!” the word white, is used in a metaphorical way, and there’s obvious disagreement (less so now than fifty years ago, thankfully) over the appropriateness of that metaphor. In this case, the irony can apply just as easily to the meaning intended by the word “white” as it can to the appropriatness of applying that label to the person being described. > > Incidentally, what the hell is “racial essentialism?” I’ve never heard that phrase before. Except that it’s been well established upthread that this is precisely what the expression, used without irony, means. Using it with irony indicates the person is the opposite. As I said before, within the narrow confines of a direct response to a racist comment, I can see how it functions the way you say it does. Otherwise, I don’t. “Racial essentialism” is the belief that some personality characteristics can be ascribed to certain races. That is, that they are innate to one race or another. It could be laziness, or uptightness, or anything else you might ascribe to a specific race. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/125 "2006-03-03T23:47:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Perhaps when more time has passed between its currency as a racist expression, and the meaning you want to ascribe to it, it will not be offensive. Not now, though. Not now to you. To _you_. Not to me. And I’m one of the most over-sensitive, hyper-empathetic, politically-correct white guys that you’ll ever hope to meet. Of course, I try to maintain a solid head on my shoulders as well. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/126 "2006-03-03T23:49:39Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > It is a conceit developed to the point of absurdity. If you want to write an essay titled “That’s Mighy White of You,” and gradually epand on a racist notion until it is so absurd that it cannot be taken seriously, go ahead. That’s not what you’re doing when you use this expression, though. But that is indeed what we are doing–how dare you tell me how I am using a phrase? This is all YOUR misintrpretation–not a malign motivation on my part. “That’s mighty white of you” is a conceit to the point of absurdity. AKA mockery. Oy veh (or can’t I use that phrase, either–seeing as how I’m not Jewish?) ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/127 "2006-03-03T23:50:07Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Do you know-I can read. I have read and reread that–reposting it doesn’t change my stance or my opinion. > I am sorry that you cannot seem to see the positive use this phrase has. And just what the hell is “Racial essentialism”? That sound like pure BS to me. > Completely anecdotal support: just asked my friend Stephanie (who is black! :eek: her son and my son are friends! :eek: ) if she has ever heard the phrase used as a racial epithet. She says no-she has heard it used as a snide way of belittling someone. Yep, anecdotes don’t mean shit here, but I just thought I’d add that in. Her parents use the phrase as a damning, blighting remark–just like me. Food for thought, indeed. > Bottom line: I do not agree with your interpretation. If a mod calls for the banning of the phrase–I will stop using it here. > > I do have a rather subversive, devious idea, though. How’s about I just say it’s fuschia of you, darling and let it be. I never called for the banning of the phrase. I think you should understand that the expression is offensive, and not because people are overly sensitive. The history of the expression is racist. Use it or don’t, but understand what you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/128 "2006-03-03T23:51:45Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Except that it’s been well established upthread that this is precisely what the expression, used without irony, means. Using it with irony indicates the person is the opposite. As I said before, within the narrow confines of a direct response to a racist comment, I can see how it functions the way you say it does. Otherwise, I don’t. That’s the only point I’m arguing. You said earlier that it was still offensive even when used ironically. Are you retreating from that position? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/129 "2006-03-03T23:52:05Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Oy veh (or can’t I use that phrase, either–seeing as how I’m not Jewish?) Oy veh is an expression that Jewish people actually use. There is no implication in it that there is any characteristic essential to Jewish people. If on the other hand, you were to say “i just got jewed out of $20,” that would be offensive. Can you see the difference? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/130 "2006-03-03T23:53:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s the only point I’m arguing. You said earlier that it was still offensive even when used ironically. Are you retreating from that position? Not retreating, retreated. I think it’s on page two. I gave up that redoubt many posts ago. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/131 "2006-03-03T23:54:34Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Not retreating, retreated. I think it’s on page two. I gave up that redoubt many posts ago. And since that’s really the only way people have used the phrase here, don’t you think your continuing to argue about it is pointless? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/132 "2006-03-03T23:56:19Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Not now to you. To _you_. Not to me. And I’m one of the most over-sensitive, hyper-empathetic, politically-correct white guys that you’ll ever hope to meet. Of course, I try to maintain a solid head on my shoulders as well. Well, I can’t really change whether it’s offensive to you. I can explain why I think it’s offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/133 "2006-03-03T23:56:30Z")
> [@](#): > > And since that’s really the only way people have used the phrase here, don’t you think your continuing to argue about it is pointless? Well, I think that **saoirse** and I have a legitimate dispute about whether it can be used non-ironically in a non-racist context. Or, at least, ironically not because the original phrase is racist, but because it’s dated and conjures up images of John Wayne calling people “pilgrim.” ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/134 "2006-03-03T23:57:08Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Goodness me, what a storm in a teacup. Surely that’s enough unpleasantness and bad temper. Let’s all treat each other with generosity, kindness, forebearance and honour. > > I mean, come on, play the white man chaps! 😃 You are pure evil\*. Beware: yYou won’t be the white-haired boy around here, if you keep this up! \*I like that in a man. 😉 **saoirse** you are not going to shame me out my use of that phrase. You are not going to change my mind. Call it day,already. And lighten up, Francis. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/135 "2006-03-03T23:57:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, I can’t really change whether it’s offensive to you. I can explain why I think it’s offensive. Saying you think it’s offensive is one thing. Saying it _is_ offensive is another. My impression is that you’ve been arguing the second proposition. Apologies if that isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/136 "2006-03-03T23:58:06Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And since that’s really the only way people have used the phrase here, don’t you think your continuing to argue about it is pointless? No, it’s not. Look at posts cited by **Maureen** and **Left Hand of Dorkness.** What I said was: > [@](#): > > As I said before, within the narrow confines of a direct response to a racist comment, I can see how it functions the way you say it does. Otherwise, I don’t. I haven’t seen it used that way on this board. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/137 "2006-03-03T23:59:48Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Oy veh is an expression that Jewish people actually use. There is no implication in it that there is any characteristic essential to Jewish people. > > If on the other hand, you were to say “i just got jewed out of $20,” that would be offensive. Can you see the difference? You can cut the patronizing condescension, pal. If you can’t see the difference pointed out to you by many Dopers re white of you–you’re hardly in a position to lecture me on shades of meaning of anything. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/138 "2006-03-04T00:00:26Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Saying you think it’s offensive is one thing. Saying it _is_ offensive is another. My impression is that you’ve been arguing the second proposition. Apologies if that isn’t true. Well, I can only say what I think. I also think you should think that too, or I wouldn’t bother arguing with you. However, when you get to the point where you simply say that you don’t find it offensive, I don’t have anything I can say to that. You believe that “white” in that expression does not refer to race. I believe it does. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/139 "2006-03-04T00:01:10Z")
Huh? I believe the phrase was used originally, by **eleanor** to insult a poster and imply he was a bigot. Whether would be a racial bigot, a homophobe, whatever, it still doesn’t make the phrase offensive. No matter how much you want it to be. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/140 "2006-03-04T00:01:56Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > You can cut the patronizing condescension, pal. If you can’t see the difference pointed out to you by many Dopers re white of you–you’re hardly in a position to lecture me on shades of meaning of anything. Then why did you use “Oy veh” as an example? How did you think that was analogous? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=8)