# Don't say "That's awful white of you," please. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941 "2006-03-03T19:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/141 "2006-03-04T00:02:02Z")
And to ruin your argument–“nigger” is a term that many African Americans use–that does NOT make it OK. Your logic sucks. Off to pick up child #3. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/142 "2006-03-04T00:02:48Z")
And again, I’ve attempted to explain how I, personally, view the phrase. I understand that it may have, at one time, had racist connotations (because it possibly, maybe originated in the southern US). Words and phrases change meaning over time. Just like “fair.” It no longer holds the definition it once held, indeed, if it ever held it at all. it’s entirely possible that the way I and **gadarene** read the definition (fair, obliging, generous, etc.) was the way it was originally intended. I’m sorry you see racist overtones in the phrase, and I’m sorry you’re offended. But I do think you’re reading more into it than is there. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/143 "2006-03-04T00:03:17Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Huh? I believe the phrase was used originally, by **eleanor** to insult a poster and imply he was a bigot. Whether would be a racial bigot, a homophobe, whatever, it still doesn’t make the phrase offensive. No matter how much you want it to be. Right. But not in response to a racist statement. **Maureen** used it to insult the Governor of South Dakota for wanting to ban abortions. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/144 "2006-03-04T00:03:43Z")
> [@](#): > > You believe that “white” in that expression does not refer to race. I believe it does. I believe that it does to some people. I believe that it doesn’t to other people. I believe the second group is substantially larger than the first. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/145 "2006-03-04T00:05:01Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > And again, I’ve attempted to explain how I, personally, view the phrase. > > I understand that it may have, at one time, had racist connotations (because it possibly, maybe originated in the southern US). Words and phrases change meaning over time. Just like “fair.” It no longer holds the definition it once held, indeed, if it ever held it at all. it’s entirely possible that the way I and **gadarene** read the definition (fair, obliging, generous, etc.) was the way it was originally intended. I’m sorry you see racist overtones in the phrase, and I’m sorry you’re offended. But I do think you’re reading more into it than is there. From the cite, I would say that the meaning was in the expression from the beginning. I don’t see how you can take an expression like that and just say “It doesn’t mean that anymore, because I don’t want it to.” ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/146 "2006-03-04T00:05:43Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Right. But not in response to a racist statement. **Maureen** used it to insult the Governor of South Dakota for wanting to ban abortions. No, actually, I didn’t. I used it to insult a poster on this board for explaining why he would force his 14 year old daughter to bear a child. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/147 "2006-03-04T00:05:16Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Right. But not in response to a racist statement. **Maureen** used it to insult the Governor of South Dakota for wanting to ban abortions. _beats head against keyboard_ And in that context it was appropriate. It was being used SARCASTICALLY. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/148 "2006-03-04T00:07:40Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > _beats head against keyboard_ > > And in that context it was appropriate. It was being used SARCASTICALLY. > > :rolleyes: But why does “white” NOT describe the Governor of South Dakota? Why is it not “white” of him to sign that bill? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/149 "2006-03-04T00:08:58Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > From the cite, I would say that the meaning was in the expression from the beginning. I don’t see how you can take an expression like that and just say “It doesn’t mean that anymore, because I don’t want it to.” No, I’m saying it doesn’t mean that anymore because that isn’t the way people are using it. But I question whether or not it meant that in the first place. I realize you DO believe it meant that, but I don’t see that interpretation. And you still haven’t explained _why_ you think it’s racist. Is it because of its possible area of origin? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/150 "2006-03-04T00:09:10Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > No, actually, I didn’t. I used it to insult a poster on this board for explaining why he would force his 14 year old daughter to bear a child. Very well, I misread it, then. Still, how is it not “white?” Or how is it “white?” Whichever way you meant it, what does “white of you” mean in this context? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/151 "2006-03-04T00:10:34Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > No, I’m saying it doesn’t mean that anymore because that isn’t the way people are using it. But I question whether or not it meant that in the first place. I realize you DO believe it meant that, but I don’t see that interpretation. And you still haven’t explained _why_ you think it’s racist. Is it because of its possible area of origin? But that is the way people are using it. The cite I’ve posted a dozen times explains the origins in terms of its racial overtones. Why do you feel it has lost its original meaning? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/152 "2006-03-04T00:11:15Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > But why does “white” NOT describe the Governor of South Dakota? Why is it not “white” of him to sign that bill? Look, you ignorant piece of shit, the point is, the phrase has _evolved_ over time to mean, “Wow, you really are an ignorant, narrow-minded jackass!” It’s usually used to point out someone is being patronizing, racist, sexist, discriminating, homophobic, or basically, just an asshole. Will you get that through your thick skull already! ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/153 "2006-03-04T00:12:02Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > I believe that it does to some people. I believe that it doesn’t to other people. I believe the second group is substantially larger than the first. I can only disagree. I don’t know what evidence either of us could produce for this. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/154 "2006-03-04T00:14:19Z")
No, it bloody well is NOT the way I’m using it! It’s the way YOU are interpreting my use of it! Two entirely different things. I’ve read and re-read the cite. Again: The cite you posted shows the original definition is “fair.” Why do you feel “fair” translated to “white” is racist? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/155 "2006-03-04T00:16:00Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > No, it bloody well is NOT the way I’m using it! It’s the way YOU are interpreting my use of it! Two entirely different things. > > I’ve read and re-read the cite. Again: The cite you posted shows the original definition is “fair.” Why do you feel “fair” translated to “white” is racist? Well, again, in what way is requiring a 14-year-old to carry a pregnancy to term “white?” Or in what way is it not “white?” What does whiteness have to do with abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/156 "2006-03-04T00:16:39Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > But that is the way people are using it. The cite I’ve posted a dozen times explains the origins in terms of its racial overtones. Why do you feel it has lost its original meaning? Well, people started using it sarcastically, to mean the opposite of what it originally meant, and over time, through that usage, it came to be an insult meaning, “You’re a narrow-minded tool.” Make sense? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/157 "2006-03-04T00:17:06Z")
It was quite the opposite of “fair,” wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/158 "2006-03-04T00:17:28Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Look, you ignorant piece of shit, the point is, the phrase has _evolved_ over time to mean, “Wow, you really are an ignorant, narrow-minded jackass!” It’s usually used to point out someone is being patronizing, racist, sexist, discriminating, homophobic, or basically, just an asshole. > > Will you get that through your thick skull already! Well you feel it’s evolved. I can see no evidence that it has. I can only see people using an expression without thinking about where it comes from or what they are implying by it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/159 "2006-03-04T00:18:24Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Look, you ignorant piece of shit, the point is, the phrase has _evolved_ over time to mean, “Wow, you really are an ignorant, narrow-minded jackass!” It’s usually used to point out someone is being patronizing, racist, sexist, discriminating, homophobic, or basically, just an asshole. > > Will you get that through your thick skull already! _Somebody’s_ being awfully seafoam. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/160 "2006-03-04T00:19:03Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well, people started using it sarcastically, to mean the opposite of what it originally meant, and over time, through that usage, it came to be an insult meaning, “You’re a narrow-minded tool.” > > Make sense? And that was my original point. Using it as “the opposite of what it originally meant” still acknowledges, and uses, the original definition. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=9)