# Don't say "That's awful white of you," please. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941 "2006-03-03T19:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/161 "2006-03-04T00:19:03Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Well you feel it’s evolved. I can see no evidence that it has. I can only see people using an expression without thinking about where it comes from or what they are implying by it. YOU see it that way. Others have explained why you are wrong. It has nothing to do with the word “white” somehow meaning something, but the entire phrase. It’s not our problem that you refuse to accept our explanations. It’s not offensive just because you want it to be offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/162 "2006-03-04T00:22:59Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > _Somebody’s_ being awfully seafoam. That’s actually one of my best colors. Thank you for noticing-that’s-dare I say it? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/163 "2006-03-04T00:26:17Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Not retreating, retreated. I think it’s on page two. I gave up that redoubt many posts ago. > > … > > And that was my original point. Using it as “the opposite of what it originally meant” still acknowledges, and uses, the original definition. Well, now I’m just confused. Do you think using it ironically is offensive or not? If not, what exactly are you arguing with **Guinastasia** about? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/164 "2006-03-04T00:26:30Z")
Now it’s my turn to beg off for a while. I have some place to be, and I have to get going. I’ll try to answer what I can when I get back. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/165 "2006-03-04T00:49:25Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Huh? I believe the phrase was used originally, by **eleanor** to insult a poster and imply he was a bigot. Whether would be a racial bigot, a homophobe, whatever, it still doesn’t make the phrase offensive. No matter how much you want it to be. Actually, I used the phrase to DENIGRATE **Martin** because he “dissed” the mentally ill in his rant about liberals et al. That remark of his, **saorise** was NOT white of him BECAUSE it was not noble, gracious, compassionate or fair. It was a lowdown dirty trick to smear those who have done nothing to him and cannot help their condition and I called him on it. How the fuck that is racist of me is beyond me. IMO, I’m starting to think that YOU are prejudiced–against smart, liberal Dopers who get subtleties. I refuse to apologize for your being a concrete operationalist. Now, I offered (tongue in cheek) to change the color in question to fuschia-someone else has chimed in with seafoam. Why oh why do I have the strong feeling that IF I substitute fuschia for white in that oh so pithy and damning phrase that you will just “know” that it is replacing “white” and continue to find offense? Christ knows I try to allow for others’ feelings here and in RL, but this is PC nonsense taken too far. **saorise** and **the Dorkness** apparently police their language more strictly than the Hayes Office of old. So be it. That is their choice and they are welcome to their opinions. The rest of us recognize intent and context–and if we don’t–we ask about it. You are so determined to dress me down on this. I have apologized to you, singly, for any offense to YOU I might have caused. I state again–I will not be shamed into avoiding idiomatic language appropriately. You refuse, REFUSE to see other non-racial interps for the word “white” . You, sir, are guilty of racial essentialism. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/166 "2006-03-04T00:50:10Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > IF the “white” in that phrase is racial, etc., etc. But, what if the “white” in that phrase is NOT racial? What happens to your argument then? For the record, I have no doubt that it was originally racist—I simply think that it was in such common usage that the racial content was lost. If you’d have claimed that "white"wasn’t racial, I wouldn’t have said anything - the whole thing is not a big deal to me, and I wasn’t sure of the etymology myself. My issue was that you deemed those who object to the racist phrase overly PC mainly because your small-town friends from sixty years ago used it all the time. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/167 "2006-03-04T01:12:06Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > If you’d have claimed that "white"wasn’t racial, I wouldn’t have said anything - the whole thing is not a big deal to me, and I wasn’t sure of the etymology myself. My issue was that you deemed those who object to the racist phrase overly PC mainly because your small-town friends from sixty years ago used it all the time. Well, it wasn’t quite sixty years ago—more like fifty to fifty-five. As I’ve said, I never used the phrase, nor do I use it now. I think the entire issue is just about beaten to death. I would just as soon drop the entire thing. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/168 "2006-03-04T01:25:43Z")
> [@KAndre](#): > > Well, I admit I always associated the phrase “That’s mighty white of you” with ones like “I’m free, white and over twenty-one” in American literature of the first half of the 20th Century, and that the underlying reason was race associated - in that just being a “white” person was a good thing, with the other side of that coin implied. I personally would not use it with someone I didn’t know well, but I’m a forty-something black female. Yes, me too! And I say that as a white person who used the expression “free, white, and twenty one” for YEARS before someone politely informed me of its racist background. So I went and looked it up, and sure enough, it’s fairly loaded. At that point, I was amazed that no one had mentioned it to me before. I don’t have much of a dog in this fight, because I’m pretty neutral on “mighty white” used in an ironic way. But I do feel compelled to give **saoirse** a little support on the origin of the phrase. From the cite he (she? sorry) has shared (several times), which matches with most of the other info I have found in a quickie online search, the phrase is based on the idea of white as a race, not white as in white hat. Whether or not people intend it to be about white as a race or white as a hat, that’s the origin. If you feel comfortable that the meaning has evolved enough that the common understanding is now of the hat variety, then go to town with it. It’s just silly, on the other hand, to act like that was NEVER the meaning. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/169 "2006-03-04T01:28:25Z")
I can’t speak for the other Dopers, but I acknowledged the racial undertone from the first. And made it clear that that wasn’t my intent. You see the result before you. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/170 "2006-03-04T01:33:29Z")
“That’s mighty white of you” is quite lame to me, if only because it isn’t always 100% clear what it is being conveyed when somebody says it. It takes a certain finesse to pull it off smoothly and I find that most people don’t have that particular finesse. It’s even worse in a text-based medium. I don’t see how anyone can seriously claim they are using “white” in any other way but race. How many people go around saying white when they mean noble? Outside of Tolkien, I’ve never heard anyone apply white in that way. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/171 "2006-03-04T03:24:39Z")
I am a sixty-something year old white woman who grew up in the segregated South and who spent my most productive years teaching English and communication in integrated Southern schools. I’m hoping that I can add a little perspective. > [@](#): > > **eleanorigby** : I can’t speak for the other Dopers, but I acknowledged the racial undertone from the first. And made it clear that that wasn’t my intent. I believe you. From my own experience in the early 1960’s, I know that a person can be aware of the racial undertone of that phrase and still use it and not be a racially bigoted person and remain oblivious to how offensive the phrase is to some people. I have come to enjoy your posts – your attitude, your insights, your analogies, and your sense of humor at the Dope, **Ms. Rigsby**. I often think of us as kindred spirits – only I’m creakier. I don’t for one moment think that you intended your comment to be racist. But one thing that I used to teach in my communication classes was that the Message Sent is not always the Message Received. “Mighty white of you” means one thing to some of you and it means an entirely different thing to another group of people. Both groups are right. I’ve known you and **Guinastasia** long enough to know that you are savvy people and not some sick racists. To the contrary. But **saoirse** and I don’t just “choose” to be offended by this expression. I used to use it myself without thinking. Then one of my African-American friends called me on it in the mid-1960’s and I _thought_ about the implications of it and a few other things I was saying and I quit using it. After a while, I started to bristle when I heard it used. Then I didn’t hear or see it used for twenty years – until your post. Is it being “reclaimed”? Why? I don’t see why it needs to be reclaimed. Why do we want to reclaim a phrase which implies that white is more noble? I don’t want to do that even in sarcasm. But that’s my individual choice. We really are truly and naturally offended by the use of that phrase, **eleanorigsby.** Whether or not you use it is totally your choice and I respect that and I like you no matter what choice you make. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/172 "2006-03-04T03:27:23Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > Outside of Tolkien, I’ve never heard anyone apply white in that way. Sure, you can still find it but not as much in popular culture. Older works, mostly. I would probably peg the stoppage of that usage to about the middle of the 20th century unless you’re talking fantasy. For example, here’s the descriptions of the colors in Magic: The Gathering. > [@My old manual for the Magic: The Gathering computer game](#): > > **White** magic draws its vitality from the untouched, open plains. Though white magicians focus on spells of healing and protection, they also devote plenty of time to the chivalrous arts of war. White’s traditional foils are black and red. > > **Black** magic’s power comes from the swamps and bogs; it thrives on death and decay. Many wizards shun black magic’s self-destructive nature even as they long for its ruthlessness. Black’s traditional foils are green and white. Does this mean I can no longer play white and black decks because they’re racially charged? I can set up a wonderfully ridiculous argument (which I bet some people would actually take seriously) about how awful it is that black is related to decay and necromancy. Reminds me of the protests against _The Lord of the Rings_ because of the whole white=good and black=evil thing. Actually, I think the first time I ran across the phrase was when I was reading _Beyond This Horizon_ by Heinlein. Book written in 1942, the youth is from 1926. Talking about reintroducing football to the 23rd (I think) century: > [@](#): > > “Then you aren’t interested?” > Hamilton was not, very. But he looked at the youth’s disappointed face and decided to stretch a point. “I’m interested, but it isn’t my line. I’ll put you in touch with my agent. I think he could work something out of it. I’ll talk with him first.” > “Say, that’s white of you!” > “I take it that means approval. It’s no trouble to me, really.” One of the banes of language is the false etymologies stupid people keep coming up with, and aren’t all racial (The other bane of language, of course, is sacrificing clarity and perfectly fine usage on the Altar of Inclusiveness.) I think anyone with a knowledge of both language and literature would understand this. In most cases, we’re either talking about idioms that are quite old or a somewhat archaic word usage. Or can I start slamming C.S. Lewis as being homophobic for repeated usage of “queer” and “gay” in their non-slang sense while simultaneously praising his racial sensitivity for a sentence like: > [@Out of the Silent Planet](#): > > Devine had just learned half a term earlier than anyone else that kind of humour which consists of a perpetual parody of the sentimental or idealistic cliches of one’s elders. For a few weeks his references to the Dear Old Place and to Playing the Game, to the White Man’s Burden and a Straight Bat, had swept everyone, Ransom included, off their feet. But before he left Wedenshaw Ransom had already begun to find Devine a bore, and at Cambridge he had avoided him, wondering from afar how anyone so flashy and, as it were, ready-made, could be so successful. > [@you with the face](#): > > I don’t see how anyone can seriously claim they are using “white” in any other way but race. How many people go around saying white when they mean noble? It’s an idiom. I generally don’t go around saying how noble or chivalrous someone is either, but I might use white in that sense as either part of an idiomatic construction or in an older usage. That’s one of the advantages of having a good vocabulary and being literate. There are more ways to precisely express myself and get the right shade of meaning. Or can I not use “a black look”, “a coon’s age”, “black-hearted”, “black sheep”, “dark horse”, “pot calling the kettle black”, and so on either? Heck, D&D’s got the Paladin and the Blackguard, so should I inform Wizards of the Coast that I’m going to boycott their games (which would be a shame, since NWN2 is coming out soon, though I don’t play Magic these days) until they remove all possible racial connotations, real or mistaken? > [@Zoe](#): > > But one thing that I used to teach in my communication classes was that the Message Sent is not always the Message Received. Well, that’s their own damn fault. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/173 "2006-03-04T03:30:53Z")
Well, like I said, **Zoe** , when I use it, it’s usually ironic. I don’t use it sincerely. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/174 "2006-03-04T03:58:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well, like I said, **Zoe** , when I use it, it’s usually ironic. I don’t use it sincerely. The problem with that Guinn is that I come from alabama, my grandfather was in the Klan, I knew exactly what he meant when he said it. Its kind of like if somebody from space landed and started saying nigger this and nigger that, and when confronted said well thats not how I meant it. ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/175 "2006-03-04T04:04:53Z")
I also want to chip in with some support for **saoirse** ’s interpretation of this phrase. I’ve heard it used many, many times, always as an insult. It is used sarcastically, in the sense of: ‘your (cheap, ignorant, duplicitous, lazy) behavior is not the (generous, wise, honest, hardworking) behavior that you think it is’. Or ‘you think you are setting a good example, but you are not.’ However, I have always understood it to have originated from a racist belief that whites are inherently honest, generous, wise, etc., or at least that they should _act_ that way as an example to the ‘less advanced races.’ The phrase may have started out as a genuine complement, used unironically between whites who were feeling self-congratulatory. It could also clearly be used sarcastically by a racist, in the sense of ‘you act more like a (insert epithet here) than a white man.’ The sarcastic usage has become predominant, in the sense of ‘you think that you are being noble, but really you are an asshole.’ Many, perhaps most, people who use the phrase today may be ignorant of its origins and underlying racist connotations, but that does not mean that they do not exist. For example, I grew up using “gyp” in the sense of being cheated or defrauded. I did not know until my late teens that the phrase originated as a disparagment of the morals of Gypsy peoples. Ever since learning this, I have tried to avoid using the phrase, even though most people who use it are unaware of the underlying slur. Perhaps it can be said that the phrase is now so commonly used in a benign way that its use can be condoned, but I still feel uncomfortable using it and will occasionally point out its history to a person that uses it. So, it may be that most people that use ‘mighty white’ are not aware of its origins; perhaps they do their own internal folk etymology on it and assume that ‘white’=‘full-spectrum light; pure; noble’ and feel fully justified in using it. But once you have been _told_ of its origins, and that (at least originally) ‘white’=‘member of the white race’, why would you persist in using the phrase? The odds that I would inadvertantly say “what a gyp” to an actual Romany person and offend them is very low, but I still avoid using the phrase, and I don’t think that that makes me hypersensitive or PC. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/176 "2006-03-04T04:12:17Z")
Doesn’t strike me as much worse than “The Man.” “Stick it to The Man.” What does that mean? I’m a white guy, is everyone supposed to be sticking it to me? Ouch. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/177 "2006-03-04T04:14:51Z")
Thanks brossa, great post! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/178 "2006-03-04T04:25:58Z")
I get what you’re saying, but to me, it doesn’t sound any difference than insulting someone by implying they’re a Nazi and saying, “Sieg Heil!” to them. It’s turning it around on them. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/179 "2006-03-04T04:28:24Z")
**Guinastasia** , I believe you when you say how you use it. No problem. But what if in a couple of years a part of the country (Henry County, Tennessee) decides to start reclaiming the use of “slut-whore” so that it is no longer an insult. For them it could become a little joke or term of endearment among friends – the way that the very best of friends can mutter the word “bitch” under the breath in a teasing way now. Wouldn’t it take a very long time before someone who is just an MB acquaintance from Henry County could call you a “slut-whore” without your being somewhat offended – especially if that usage hasn’t taken hold at all in your part of the country? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941/180 "2006-03-04T04:43:02Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Sure, you can still find it but not as much in popular culture. Older works, mostly. I would probably peg the stoppage of that usage to about the middle of the 20th century unless you’re talking fantasy. That’s my point. “White” in the noble sense is not a common feature of the modern American vernacular. Perhaps it was back in the day, but “white” today is not usually the word people reach for when describing nobility or grace. So for someone to declare indignantly that they are using white in that sense and “how dare you interpret otherwise” strikes as more than a wee but absurd. And disingenous. It’s like declaring a dislike for faggots in a crowded room and then getting bent out of shape when people think you are talking about gays instead of cigarettes. It’s been shown that “that’s mighty white of you” indeed has racist origins, so it’s not like folks are imagining things that simply aren’t there. Those who are fond of saying it may be clueless of its history, but that doesn’t change the fact that the phrase is what it is. Words and phrases do not just mean what the individual wants them to mean. You can’t just appropriate a phrase to mean something else and expect everyone else to follow. If you say “that’s mighty white of you” and then bat your eyes innocently when someone takes offense, saying that you meant “white” in a completely different way than how its usually meant is just going to make you look like someone who doesn’t know how to communicate effectively. > [@](#): > > That’s one of the advantages of having a good vocabulary and being literate. What good is a good vocabulary if you are using words in ways that are easily misinterpreted? Just because you can? Well, that’s all well and good, I guess, if effective communication isn’t a high priority. > [@](#): > > There are more ways to precisely express myself and get the right shade of meaning. Or can I not use “a black look”, “a coon’s age”, “black-hearted”, “black sheep”, “dark horse”, “pot calling the kettle black”, and so on either? The difference between those terms and the phrase that we are talking about is that the latter was popularized as a racist saying. “Dark horse” and “pot calling…” have nothing to do with race at all. More apt comparisons would be “gyped” or “jewed down”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-say-thats-awful-white-of-you-please/346941.md?page=10)