# Don't Steal Virtual Items **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 22, 2008, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039 "2008-10-22T12:49:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/1 "2008-10-22T12:49:49Z")
Something for budding Neos to keep in mind: > [@](#): > > **Dutch court convicts 2 of stealing virtual items** > > AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - A Dutch court has convicted two youths of theft for stealing virtual items in a computer game and sentenced them to community service. > > … > The Leeuwarden District Court says the culprits, 15 and 14 years old, coerced a 13-year-old boy into transferring a “virtual amulet and a virtual mask” from the online adventure game RuneScape to their game accounts. > > … > > The 15-year-old was sentenced to 200 hours service, and the 14-year-old to 160 hours. This apparently isn’t a case of stealing something like software, but of stealing items that have no actual, independent existence. The mind boggles. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/2 "2008-10-22T13:43:51Z")
Hey people sell those things for real money. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/3 "2008-10-22T13:46:51Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Hey people sell those things for real money. Do they sell by the pixel? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/4 "2008-10-22T13:48:13Z")
Holy crap. How is it possible that our lawyers got beaten to the punch on this one by the friggin’ Dutch? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/5 "2008-10-22T13:49:28Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Hey people sell those things for real money. Right, they may not have physical existence, but they have value, nevertheless. ---
**Author:** ![Borborygmi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/borborygmi/32/217_2.png) [@Borborygmi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Borborygmi)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/6 "2008-10-22T13:51:13Z")
By my calculations, the 15-year-old should be able to pick up the virtual litter from over 148 million miles of the information superhighway in 200 hours. Oh, Amsterdam. Sorry. Over 238 million kilometers. ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/7 "2008-10-22T14:37:40Z")
Hey, virtual items are big (real) business. “Goldsellers”, based mostly in China, are responsible for a huge percentage of online video game account hackings. People log in and find that their characters have been stripped of all of their money and possessions. And then the goldsellers sell that virtual money for real cash. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/8 "2008-10-22T14:55:16Z")
Obviously this is a trend that I’ve missed. According to this article: > **[Virtual Goods: the next big business model | TechCrunch](https://techcrunch.com/2007/06/20/virtual-goods-the-next-big-business-model/)** > > This guest post is written by Susan Wu, a Principal with Charles River Ventures, where she focuses on digital media, software, and infrastructure. Susan > [@](#): > > Habbo Hotel has over 75 million registered avatars in 29 countries and 90% of their $60 million+ yearly revenue comes from virtual goods. !!! > [@](#): > > So why do people spend real money on virtual objects? There are four major reasons: > > Virtual objects aren’t really objects - they’re services > > Virtual objects aren’t really objects - they are graphical metaphors for packaging up behaviors that people are already engaging in. As James Hong from HotorNot tells it, his virtual flower service has 3 components: there’s the object itself represented by a graphical flower icon, there’s the gesture of someone sending the flower to their online crush, and finally, there’s the trophy effect of everyone else being able to see that you got a flower. People on HotorNot are paying $10 to send the object of their affection a virtual flower - which is a staggering 3-4x what you might pay for a real flower! Of the 3 components, the two that James says are most important to his users are the trophy effect and the meaning of the gesture itself. As the barriers between peoples’ online and offline selves continue to erode, this market for virtual goods is going to explode. People are going to continue to seek out ways to show real emotional engagement online. Virtual gifts are a particularly compelling way to package your attention. > > … > > Virtual objects create real value for people > > … > > The cost of buying objects can be cheaper than “earning” them > Who hasn’t heard of the Chinese gold farmers in World of Warcraft? Typically, these farmers are young students who spend up to 12-14 hours a day playing the game. They can then sell these goods or characters to US based players for US dollars. The term ‘farming’ refers to the fact that they spend hours performing the same tedious in-game action over and over again to yield a certain payoff. This industry has arisen to take advantage of arbitrage opportunities that result from the disparity in opportunity costs. The Chinese farmers value their time much less than American players. This isn’t a moral statement, it’s just one of economic fact. While it might take both players 60 hours to progress a character up to level 40, the opportunity cost for the American player could be $900 (60 hours \* $15/hr,) whereas the opportunity cost for the Chinese player could be 30 (60 hours \* .50/hr). The American player is willing to pay up to $900 for a level 40 character, creating profit opportunities for the Chinese player. [Note to all the flamers: I don’t sanction farming in environments where it’s clearly prohibited by the game designers. I’m just trying to explain why this makes sense to some of the buyers and sellers.] > > … > > You can make money off of virtual objects > [@](#): > > While people preoccupy themselves with mocking the absurdities of some of these virtual worlds, the reality is that there are many businesses out there making meaningful amounts of money in virtual goods Yup, that’d be me. The mockong part. I’m still amazed by the size of this virtual trade. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/9 "2008-10-22T15:05:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Typically, these farmers are young students who spend up to 12-14 hours a day playing the game. They can then sell these goods or characters to US based players for US dollars. The term ‘farming’ refers to the fact that they spend hours performing the same tedious in-game action over and over again to yield a certain payoff. This industry has arisen to take advantage of arbitrage opportunities that result from the disparity in opportunity costs. My son, the budding entrepreneur, was/is(?) making money off his friends and his friends’ friends beating certain levels or reaching certain “achievements” for them on XBOX Live. They pay him to log in under their accounts and get through the parts they’re having trouble with. The mind boggles. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/10 "2008-10-22T15:31:22Z")
This is hardly a new problem, I see. Google “Virtual theft” and you get plenty of cases, including this one by a Dutch teenager a year ago. (A Dutch teenager again. What IS it with Dutch teens and virtual theft?) > **[BBC NEWS | Technology | 'Virtual theft' leads to arrest](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7094764.stm)** > > A Dutch teenager is arrested for allegedly stealing virtual furniture from rooms in Habbo Hotel. > [@](#): > > A Dutch teenager has been arrested for allegedly stealing virtual furniture from “rooms” in Habbo Hotel, a 3D social networking website. > The 17-year-old is accused of stealing 4,000 euros (£2,840) worth of virtual furniture, bought with real money. > > Five 15-year-olds have also been questioned by police, who were contacted by the website’s owners. > > The six teenagers are suspected of moving the stolen furniture into their own Habbo rooms. This one’s more interesting – virtual theft of virtual Sex Devices: [http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071030-pipping-off-virtual-world-sex-toys-leads-to-real-world-lawsuit.html](http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071030-pipping-off-virtual-world-sex-toys-leads-to-real-world-lawsuit.html) ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/11 "2008-10-22T15:35:15Z")
Consider me to have made disparaging remarks about everybody involved. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/12 "2008-10-22T16:01:29Z")
The [Gamepolitics article](http://www.gamepolitics.com/2008/10/22/dutch-virtual-theft-case-involved-real-world-violence) on this story indicates that there was rather more to this than the theft of the items themselves. According to their translation of a Dutch [article](http://www.parool.nl/parool/nl/7/Misdaad/article/detail/38458/2008/10/21/Rechter-straft-jongens-voor-afpersen-in-computerspel.dhtml), the victim was lured into the other boys’ house, beaten, and threatened with a knife to make him transfer the items. That seems like enough to convict them on. Treating it as theft–or extortion, perhaps–seems to be a new precedent, arrived at in part because the items in question can be and sometimes are sold for real money. I don’t particularly like that precedent, but I can understand why the judge would arrive at it, especially given the urge to throw the book at these little scumbags. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/13 "2008-10-22T16:04:22Z")
It reminds me of a story told about a famous medieval Japanese judge, Ooka Tadasuke, who once [ruled in favor of a shopkeeper](http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:S5lRYLIRrDQJ:cla.sd57.bc.ca/~tlarson/Writing_12/pdf/Ooka_Stolen_Smell.pdf) who accused an impecunious student of “stealing” the scent of his cooking food to improve the experience of eating his bowls of plain white rice. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/14 "2008-10-22T17:52:26Z")
I’m a lot less comfortable with prosecuting ‘theft’ of virtual items rather than prosecuting illegal real-world behaviors that influence virtual worlds. I mean, I play EVE Online. Destroying the personal property of people you don’t like and selling what’s left for scrap is practically the entire reason for the game–I’ve personally been responsible for the senseless and brutal destruction of at least $200-$300 worth of virtual items (using current ebay rates for EVE currency) in the last three months. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/15 "2008-10-22T18:10:00Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’m a lot less comfortable with prosecuting ‘theft’ of virtual items rather than prosecuting illegal real-world behaviors that influence virtual worlds. > > I mean, I play EVE Online. Destroying the personal property of people you don’t like and selling what’s left for scrap is practically the entire reason for the game–I’ve personally been responsible for the senseless and brutal destruction of at least $200-$300 worth of virtual items (using current ebay rates for EVE currency) in the last three months. Really? Sounds fascinating. How’s it work? (No, I’m serious. No facetiousness here.) ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/16 "2008-10-22T18:14:26Z")
Is the ownership of a virtual item much different that ownership of a copyright? I can put time into writing a book or a song, and now I own the rights to that, regardless of its merits. I have to give permission to other to use it. If someone threatens to beat me up unless I let them use my song, I should have protection and they should be punishable. I can put time into creating something in an online game. If someone bullies me until I give them control of that object, what is the difference? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/17 "2008-10-22T18:14:39Z")
The interesting thing to me about a case like this is that it seems to open the door to suits against the game company itself if, for example, they take the servers down, or a glitch results in the deletion of your account. This case would seem to establish that the virtual objects are property of the user who controls them in-game, which is not the sort of precedent that the makers of these games would like to see. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/18 "2008-10-22T19:59:26Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > This case would seem to establish that the virtual objects are property of the user who controls them in-game, which is not the sort of precedent that the makers of these games would like to see. Seeing this got me thinking. What are the original charges? Where the 2 boys found guilty of theft, or of bullying? I know the original quote says they were found guilty of theft, but is that what the charges actually were? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/19 "2008-10-22T20:03:15Z")
Personally, I’m glad to see this. I expect to see MMORPGs go on the rise as technology gets more sophisticated and people get used to f2f communication online. I certainly _don’t_ want the attitude of ‘It’s only virtual, why do you care’. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039/20 "2008-10-22T23:11:07Z")
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. It’s like living in The Jetsons. It’s a hell of a fascinating time to be alive. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-steal-virtual-items/469039.md?page=2)