# Don't we also have to respect cheaters and sociopaths?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 28, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204 "2005-01-28T23:25:30Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 9
### Author:  [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)
#### Post date: [February 2, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/161 "2005-02-02T20:09:30Z")
**Roland** –
I’m just curious-- which nursing school do you attend? Is it IUPUI?
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### Author:  [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)
#### Post date: [February 2, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/162 "2005-02-02T20:14:10Z")
Hmm, perhaps my sig is appropriate here also. I tend to forget to use it.
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### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [February 2, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/163 "2005-02-02T20:18:11Z")
I think my sig is also appropriate for this thread.
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### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [February 2, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/164 "2005-02-02T20:19:55Z")
Let’s try that again:
I think my sig is also appropriate for this thread.
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### Author:  [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)
#### Post date: [February 2, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/165 "2005-02-02T20:29:31Z")
> [@Hamlet](#):
>
> Let’s try that again:
>
> I think my sig is also appropriate for this thread.
I disagree. Or at least I probably would, if I could see the fucking thing.
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### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [February 2, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/166 "2005-02-02T20:56:40Z")
> [@Rufus Xavier](#):
>
> I disagree. Or at least I probably would, if I could see the fucking thing.
It’s a stealth sig. You can only see it if you clap your hands really hard and believe that fairies can come back to life.
That or I haven’t yet mastered this damn sig thing. One of those two.
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### Author:  [@Girl\_From\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girl_From_Mars)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/167 "2005-02-03T00:00:30Z")
> [@Roland Deschain](#):
>
> I was selected first in my nursing class out of 60. I had almost 200 hours of mainly Science classes that I’ve taken over the last 18 years and completed with a GPA of 3.8. I graduated 5th in my highschool class out of about 300 with 1240 SAT’s. I scored in the 95th percentile on the ASVAB in highschool and the 90th percentile overall on the MCAT which I took about six years ago. I’m hardly a brain (usually scoring only around 115 on about every intelligence test I’ve ever taken), but neither am I a complete idiot at least compared to most nurses.
>
> My problems are mainly limited to learning coordinated skills. I’m not sure why but things like shuffling cards or learning to tie knots are damm near impossible for me.
OK. so what you’re saying is that you’re relatively smart, but you aren’t good with your hands. Nothing wrong with that. But it may mean you are not best suited to a job which is heavily weighted towards carrying out many complex manual tasks - ones which are of critical importance to do correctly, as peoples’ lives depend on it.
There are many things I’d like to do, but I’m just not skilled enough to do them (I don’t have the skills to be a race driver, or the patience to be a teacher, or the imagination to be a writer). I think what we find unreasonable is your attitude of deserving to be a nurse, regardess of whether (objectively) you can do the **whole** job well. And that you’d be willing to cheat because you don’t respect the rules.
As most of us work pretty hard to live up to the various standards we encounter in life, this attitude sucks.
> [@Roland Deschain](#):
>
> One of my points above was that if I was that Comp. Sci. Teacher I would have a duty to fail the students. However, I wouldn’t “morally berate” them for their activities or degrade their intelligence. I would actually practice a little of the multicultural tolerance for all perspectives that is constantly pounded into my head and have respected their rights to have their own opinions (including on the subject of cheating). Hell, if I can respect the perspective of those who are pro-choice (something that I believe is nothing short of murder in many cases) I can surely respect those who cheat on an assignment. Note however, that respecting them doesn’t mean not doing my duty as an instructor and enforcing the rules.
People have the right to think cheating is OK - fine - as long as they don’t do it. When they do, they may impact on other peoples’ ability to pass, it shows a lack of willingness to work, and yes, people then have the right to get upset. Think what you like - but when you act on it, don’t get surprised when people get pissed off.
> [@Roland Deschain](#):
>
> (try posting with two or three dogs barking, a Television blaring and your four year old son pulling on your arm hoping that you can finish your post before your wife walks in and casts a glance that says “shouldn’t you be studying” and you have a glimpse into my world.)
Well shouldn’t you be studying? You’re struggling to pass as you can’t meet the skill level of your peers, and the answer to that is to try harder, not to shrug and say, “I have trouble with that stuff, but you should pass me regardless”.
You say noone else in your class is having problems with this? That may not be because they can all do it easily - probably most of them are practicing this stuff ad nauseum.
Learn from this - practice this stuff, badger your lecturers until they run at the sight of you. If you can’t be bothered doing this, but still want to complain that it’s unfair, well tough. That’s not what we’re here for.
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### Author:  [@Naughtyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naughtyman)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/168 "2005-02-03T00:05:26Z")
[http://www.livejournal.com/users/ericrapp/133977.html](http://www.livejournal.com/users/ericrapp/133977.html)
Letters to Penthouse Forum by Famous Writers
only relevant thing I could find, kind of surprising, turns out this is more original than I suspected
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### Author:  [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/169 "2005-02-03T00:17:50Z")
> [@Hamlet](#):
>
> It’s a stealth sig. You can only see it if you clap your hands really hard and believe that fairies can come back to life.
>
> That or I haven’t yet mastered this damn sig thing. One of those two.
This may actually prove to be a better sig line than the one you already have…
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### Author:  [@Roland\_Deschain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Deschain)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/170 "2005-02-03T00:50:52Z")
No way would I say which nursing school I go to since I suspect that if my teachers felt as many of you do that I wouldn’t be there very long (and then my wife would leave me for posting on boards without a doubt).
No, I’m not particularly good with my hands. However, I can learn the skills to the point where I am competent it just takes more effort on my part. If I had my “study partners” from last semester it wouldn’t be a problem, but this semester I have no one to study with. The program is really built around the presumption that you will have study partners and be able to review frequently with each other.
In addition, keep in mind that there are many jobs in nursing that require minimal use of “hands on” skills. Indeed, some advanced practice nurses do few or no actual procedures instead focusing on management of chronic problems (I’m thinking of Family and Acute Care Practictioners here). I can become proficient in these skills I’m just not sure that I can do it in the two weeks I get to do this.
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/171 "2005-02-03T01:39:42Z")
> [@Roland Deschain](#):
>
> No way would I say which nursing school I go to since I suspect that if my teachers felt as many of you do that I wouldn’t be there very long
As a public service, turn yourself in.
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### Author:  [@Roland\_Deschain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Deschain)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/172 "2005-02-03T04:36:27Z")
> [@Muffin](#):
>
> As a public service, turn yourself in.
I would imagine then that if I took your advice and effectively quit nursing school that you would have no problem if I didn’t pay my $30,000 plus in student loans back? Heck, your tax money has also paid me thousands in Pell and other Grants that have allowed me to get to this point in my education. After all you are advocating that I quit the avenue of education which offers me and my family are greatest shot at escaping a life of poverity. Again, I challenge you to suggest a more appropriate line of work for me (where I can actually get a job) that will allow me to support my family at a level equal to or better than nursing. IF you cannot then I am not inclined to take your advice. On the other hand if you can then I will definitely listen and consider your alternatives.
Again, you keep saying that I should quit school without acknowleding that I am intimately involved in patient care right now. The main difference between me becoming an RN and continueing in my \*current job \* as a CNA/QNA (where I administer medication and do other nursing procedures) is that I will make much more money and have health insurence. Indeed, I might actually be able to afford the “counseling” that so many of you seem to think that I need.
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/173 "2005-02-03T06:12:45Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I just think that when people disagee with something that someone has posted that they should list reasons and arguments, rather than suggesting that the OP author get counseling, find a new line of work, ect. I try never to insult an author personally instead focusing on their ideas. I hold everyone else to the same standard.
I have focused on your ideas in this thread and have gathered from what you have said that you are not content with your life. I am not a physician, but you do show [some signs of clinical depression](http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx22.htm) and, from what you have said, they have been going on for a while. (Symptoms can develop over time. The psychological tests that you took last year might not reveal problems that you might have now.) I think that you have become ill and should see a doctor. You find that insulting. I may be mistaken and I hope that I am. That still doesn’t make my suggestion an insult anymore than pointing out that you have developed a tremor on the right side of your face.
You have left enough hints in your messages for someone to figure out where you live (using the yellow pages) if she or he wanted to and if you have not been just BSing. If _you_ think the school of nursing would bust you, you are probably right for a reason. But I am leaving this in the hands of people who know more about this sort of thing.
I feel embarassed for you and concern for the welfare of your child. But there are others to consider besides you – a lot more people.
Keep in mind that what we think of you is none of your business until we choose to write it here. We don’t owe you an opinion at all. We aren’t responsible for coming up with solutions or alternatives for you although some _tried_.
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### Author:  [@Roland\_Deschain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Deschain)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/174 "2005-02-03T06:37:18Z")
I’m rather certain that I do not meet the guidelines for clinical depression. Generally speaking I love life. No, I don’t like being a hundred pounds overweight, but I also understand that I am responsible for that condition due to my behavior and can change that situation by changing my behavior. Yes, I wish we had more money and didn’t have to struggle with bills so much, but I can see how things are getting better in large part due to plans put in place years ago (for example the decision that my wife and I made to go back to school, and the fact that she has now graduated high in her ASN class). I think that you mistake my penchant for taking what many consider to be “extremest positions” and then defending them with all of my rhetorical might as evidence of depression. I do this in the hopes that I will cause some to examine issues from perspectives that they had not previously considered. I would say that I am what Walter Williams likes to call (a frequent guest host on Rush Limbaugh’s show) an extreme Individualist. Furthermore, I don’t think that my school would have any “legal” basis to “bust” me. However, that doesn’t mean that some wouldn’t find a way to give me a hard time anyway.
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/175 "2005-02-03T07:05:07Z")
And I fully acknowledge that weight and a lack of energy alone do not indicate depression.
I’m glad to hear that you are not as destitute as you seemed earlier.
> [@](#):
>
> I think that you mistake my penchant for taking what many consider to be “extremest positions” and then defending them with all of my rhetorical might as evidence of depression. I do this in the hopes that I will cause some to examine issues from perspectives that they had not previously considered. I would say that I am what Walter Williams likes to call (a frequent guest host on Rush Limbaugh’s show) an extreme Individualist.
Not really. The term “extreme individualist” means nothing unless it has some substance. The word _individualist_ never needs the word _extreme_ added to it, for one thing.
Lenny Bruce. Jack Kerouac. Picasso. Colette. Thoreau. Whitman. Isadora Duncan. Gandhi.
It’s not that you have to be famous. But coherence helps. Do you really think you’ve made anyone reconsider _cheating_ as a valid option?
BTW, the school could legally remove you if they thought that you were a danger to patients, faculty or other students. Besides, if I’m not mistaken, they are a private school.
I’ve run out of caramel corn so I guess I’ll have to see you in another thread.
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### Author:  [@Roland\_Deschain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Deschain)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/176 "2005-02-03T07:18:58Z")
I hoped to make the point that if you are going to have respect for ALL perspectives then you must respect those who consider “cheating” to be an “adaptive” form of behavior (that doesn’t mean that you don’t enforce the rules against them. I respect prostitutes as providing a valuble service. However, if I were a police officer I wouldn’t hesistate to arrest them because it would be my job).
I am extremely “pro life” and consider abortion in most cases to be nothing short of infanticide. Indeed, I consider it a moral wrong on a level that equals slavery and approaches (but doesn’t quite reach) the Holocaust. However, I am told that I MUST respect the position of those who believe that it is an acceptable “choice”. Fine, I will do that at least in the context of secular society when I’m at work and at school. However, I have a hard time getting upset at those who cheat on schoolwork when those who in my mind commit infanticide are welcomed in the circles of respectible humans. I symbolically spit on that value system and all that it stands for and declaire those who subscribe to it to be ethically bankrupt.
> [@Zoe](#):
>
> And I fully acknowledge that weight and a lack of energy alone do not indicate depression.
>
> I’m glad to hear that you are not as destitute as you seemed earlier.
>
> Not really. The term “extreme individualist” means nothing unless it has some substance. The word _individualist_ never needs the word _extreme_ added to it, for one thing.
>
> Lenny Bruce. Jack Kerouac. Picasso. Colette. Thoreau. Whitman. Isadora Duncan. Gandhi.
>
> It’s not that you have to be famous. But coherence helps. Do you really think you’ve made anyone reconsider _cheating_ as a valid option?
>
> BTW, the school could legally remove you if they thought that you were a danger to patients, faculty or other students. Besides, if I’m not mistaken, they are a private school.
>
> I’ve run out of caramel corn so I guess I’ll have to see you in another thread.
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/177 "2005-02-03T13:12:09Z")
> [@Roland Deschain](#):
>
> Heck, your tax money has also paid me thousands
Nope. Not one cent of the taxes I pay go toward you or your eduation.
Presently you are taking up space in a program. Let someone else who can handle the program have that place.
As far as your debt goes, pay it off with whatever job you find, hopefully in a career where you do not have the chance to hurt others.
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/178 "2005-02-03T13:18:47Z")
> [@Roland Deschain](#):
>
> However, I have a hard time getting upset at those who cheat on schoolwork when those who in my mind commit infanticide are welcomed in the circles of respectible humans. I symbolically spit on that value system and all that it stands for and declaire those who subscribe to it to be ethically bankrupt.
Ethically bankrupt for having concerns about health professionals cheating on their exams? Dude, you should not attempt to be a medical professional; instead you should seek help from a medical professional.
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### Author:  [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/179 "2005-02-03T16:44:38Z")
> [@Roland Deschain](#):
>
> …those who in my mind commit infanticide are welcomed in the circles of respectible humans.
So what, you’re gonna use that as a justification for all your crap? If someone complains you did your job wrong, are you gonna say, “Well you shouldn’t be upset because THERE ARE PEOPLE KILLING BABIES ON PURPOSE EVERY DAY!” That’s like, totally fuckin’ lame, dude.
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### Author:  [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-also-have-to-respect-cheaters-and-sociopaths/287204/180 "2005-02-03T16:53:36Z")
[another pointless Randian hijack] Feb. 2 (yesterday) was Miss Rand’s 100th-birthday anniversary. [URL=http://www.aldaily.com/(Debates ensue – see top item in third column.) [/apRh]
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