# Don't we have an obligation as a society to look at ways to ban violent computer shooter games?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [December 16, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210 "2012-12-16T19:49:53Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 5

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**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/81 "2012-12-18T20:18:42Z")

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The press is now talking about violent games. I was a few days ahead of the curve. 😉 Italics added are mine. Damn, I wish that I could write this clearly and persuasively.

> **[Disarming America's Gun Culture](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/disarming-americas-gun-cu_b_2317799)**
>
> It's time that we as a nation get serious about not only treating the "symptoms" of violence, including gun violence, in America but also its root causes. Talk is not enough, nor is simply reacting to each tragic event in isolation.

Another article based on Bushman’s recent study. I was curious and goggled Bushman. He’s the Dept Chair of the School of Mass Communication, Ohio State University..

> **[New Study Claims Video Games Can Lead to Increased Aggression](https://gamerant.com/video-games-increased-aggression-violence-study/)**
>
> A new study suggests that violent video games may lead to an increase in aggressive behavior - as certain players start viewing the world as more violent and hostile than non-gamers.

> [@](#):
>
> Paradoxically, while it may be “politically incorrect” to play cowboys and indians in America today, it is acceptable to play video games that allow you – and even encourage you – to shoot and kill others, even policemem! What does this say about our culture? Check out the number of “first-person shooter” genre, best-selling video games on the market (not even counting the popularity of video game web sites). It is astonishing! Surveying the best-selling video games of 2012, it is pretty clear that violence is a common theme, with many of them displaying guns ablazing in a “virtual reality” world, all part of what Business Insider calls “the next trillion dollar industry.”
> 
> To be sure, the jury is still out on the precise link between violent video games and human behavior. Whether this link is causal or correlational, it deserves to be examined closely across different age groups, especially among minors, as well as across personality profiles, mental health diagnostic categories, etc.. The citizens of America (and the world) deserve no less. _“For good and bad, video game players are learning lessons that can be applied in the real world,” concluded Ohio State University’s Professor Brad Bushman, co-principal investigator of a recent study that revealed first-person shooter video games can teach people how to shoot guns more accurately and aim for the head. Final jury determination or not, it would appear that the matter of violent video game effects on aggression warrants further study._
> 
> Not to single out video games, what about the effects of violence on television and in the movies? And what about the hateful and violent lyrics that so many people, especially young people, hear in music today? Don’t they too need to be examined in a cultural context? Mental instability and criminal inclinations notwithstanding, what do such messages say about – and how do they influence – our culture, our core values, our relationships with each other, even among those who may have been given a so-called clean bill of health? Aren’t we all in some way accessories to the crime?

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**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/82 "2012-12-18T20:25:55Z")

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> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> The press is now talking about violent games. I was a few days ahead of the curve. 😉 Italics added are mine.

This guy isn’t the press. He’s some guy with a blog on HuffPo and he does … well, [read his bio and tell me what the hell any of this means.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-pattakos/) He’s an International Purveyor of Woo, I guess. Anyway, would you like to respond to any of the counterarguments people have made in this thread? This has nothing to do with violent video games.

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**Author:** ![Blakeyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blakeyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blakeyrat)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/83 "2012-12-18T20:37:18Z")

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> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> The press is now talking about violent games. I was a few days ahead of the curve. 😉 Italics added are mine. Damn, I wish that I could write this clearly and persuasively.
> 
> [Disarming America's Gun Culture | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-pattakos/disarming-americas-gun-cu_b_2317799.html)
> 
> Another article based on Bushman’s recent study. I was curious and goggled Bushman. He’s the Dept Chair of the School of Mass Communication, Ohio State University..  
> [New Study Claims Video Games Can Lead to Increased Aggression](http://gamerant.com/video-games-increased-aggression-violence-study/)

HuffPo is a popular blog network, but it’s not “the press” in any reasonable interpretation of the term.

And Bushman says it “warrants further study”. And in any case, he was studying whether people decided to play a loud annoying sound, not grab a rifle and start gunning people down.

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**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/84 "2012-12-18T21:05:27Z")

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I’ve posted multiple times in this thread. I don’t have much else to add. The experts have been studying this and have published results. I haven’t read them because it’s not my area of expertise.

I do know there is an unsettling resemblance to these mass murders and the First Person shooter games. The method of death is just too similar to be a coincidence. We’ve had mass murders before but they usually struck at a home and killed a family. Then maybe struck again at another home. Ted Bundy lured women into his VW and raped/killed them. One girl at a time. He did attack a sorority house (killing several women) after escaping from court but that was towards the end of his rampage. Going into a large public facility like a school, church, or theater and treating it like a carnival shooting gallery is fairly new.

> [@Marley23](#):
>
> This guy isn’t the press. He’s some guy with a blog on HuffPo and he does … well, [read his bio and tell me what the hell any of this means.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-pattakos/) He’s an International Purveyor of Woo, I guess. Anyway, would you like to respond to any of the counterarguments people have made in this thread? This has nothing to do with violent video games.

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**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/85 "2012-12-18T21:11:18Z")

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If we’re talking about violent messages in games, let’s not forget about chess, which teaches us the importance of sacrificing your less-important minions, allows the clergy to take control of huge swaths of the playing field, and stresses the importance of protecting the patriarchal leader above all else.

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**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/86 "2012-12-18T21:13:50Z")

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> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> The method of death is just too similar to be a coincidence.

I’m glad we’ve gotten to the ludicrous root of this argument. Read this again. Do you really feel like it makes any sense? ‘There are video games where you shoot people. Sometimes people really shoot other people. It’s too similar to be a coincidence!’ I have seen no evidence that some of these spree killers even played video games. Some of them definitely did, but for many of them, that’s never been established or reported. Tens of millions of people play games like this, so you can’t just assume a connection like that.

> [@Ethilrist](#):
>
> If we’re talking about violent messages in games, let’s not forget about chess, which teaches us the importance of sacrificing your less-important minions, allows the clergy to take control of huge swaths of the playing field, and stresses the importance of protecting the patriarchal leader above all else.

And the graphics are so good! Sometimes when I play chess I really feel like I’m touching the pieces.

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**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/87 "2012-12-18T21:17:57Z")

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I was referring to the method of killing. Walking down hallways and entering rooms. Then shooting whatever moves. That’s exactly how I remember Doom was. It was a shooting gallery feel as you walked along. Sure, in Doom you were also being attacked and wounded. But, the connection is there.

I can easily see a disturbed person recreating that same thrill in real life. Normal people wouldn’t but these mass murderers aren’t normal.

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**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/88 "2012-12-18T21:19:18Z")

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To paraphrase George Carlin, what sort of screwed up society talks about banning the “virtual” guns but KEEPS THE FUCKING REAL ONES!

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**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/89 "2012-12-18T21:22:01Z")

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> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> I was referring to the method of killing. Walking down hallways entering rooms. Then shooting whatever moves.

This description is just a little bit vague, don’t you think? “You walk into a room and shoot stuff” - that’s a method of killing you could only think of if you played a video games?

> [@](#):
>
> But, the connection is there.

What connection? The fact that people can walk around and hold guns at the same time?

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**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/90 "2012-12-18T21:37:20Z")

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The enemies in Doom aren’t even people.

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**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/91 "2012-12-18T21:57:45Z")

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> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> Another article based on Bushman’s recent study. I was curious and goggled Bushman. He’s the Dept Chair of the School of Mass Communication, Ohio State University..  
> [New Study Claims Video Games Can Lead to Increased Aggression](http://gamerant.com/video-games-increased-aggression-violence-study/)

Bushman’s study is a joke. it’s the “Seduction of the Innocent” for the video game world.

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**Author:** ![Blakeyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blakeyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blakeyrat)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/92 "2012-12-18T22:34:42Z")

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> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> I do know there is an unsettling resemblance to these mass murders and the First Person shooter games. The method of death is just too similar to be a coincidence.

What games have you played? I can’t think of any games even remotely similar.

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**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/93 "2012-12-18T23:03:18Z")

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Just to bring this discussion back to reality a bit, it’s being reported that Adam Lanza played quite a bit of “[Dynasty Warriors](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynasty_Warriors)”. Just about everybody under 30 (and quite a few of us over 30) are scratching our heads at how that particular game series was supposed to influence a rampage killer.

First person shooter, it ain’t. Violent? Maybe. But the violence is cartoonish and as useful for practicing or executing a rampage as old kung fu movies.

So, I guess the parallels are clear. Based on his experiences with ultra-realistic, violent games, he originally intended to use his mystical Far Eastern martial arts talents to clear the school with his bare hands and become the next emperor of China. Oh wait, that’s not what happened at all.

Of course, “being reported” apparently means “made up”. Previous reports indicate he was into “Mass Effect”, which was entirely made up.

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**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/94 "2012-12-18T23:06:46Z")

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> [@Blakeyrat](#):
>
> What games have you played? I can’t think of any games even remotely similar.

Haven’t played it, but isn’t there [a level](http://callofduty.wikia.com/wiki/No_Russian) in one of the Modern Call of Duty games where you have to join in a massacre of civilians at a (Russian, IIRC) airport? The game does allow you the option of skipping the level, and your character doesn’t survive it. I’d guess that was somewhat similar, but I’m really grasping at straws here.

There’s always JFK Reloaded…

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**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/95 "2012-12-18T23:13:27Z")

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> [@Ethilrist](#):
>
> If we’re talking about violent messages in games, let’s not forget about chess, which teaches us the importance of sacrificing your less-important minions, allows the clergy to take control of huge swaths of the playing field, and stresses the importance of protecting the patriarchal leader above all else.

And cards, which teaches that it’s the aristocracy that matters and the rest of us are just faceless numbers. Plus, its characterization is really two dimensional.

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**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/96 "2012-12-18T23:29:28Z")

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> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> I’ve posted multiple times in this thread. I don’t have much else to add.

Not even to address the counterarguments? So why is this in GD then.

> [@](#):
>
> The experts have been studying this and have published results. I haven’t read them because it’s not my area of expertise.

The experts are pretty much agreed that you are wrong. Maybe you should read some of the results sometime.

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**Author:** ![damagedgoods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecd19e/32.png) [@damagedgoods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damagedgoods)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/97 "2012-12-18T23:34:53Z")

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I have an autistic teen and he’s not “disturbed”-sorry,but I don’t read or see anywhere about the shooter,or any mass killer being “autistic”.If you are using “autistic” as a synonym for "mental illness"you’re gravely wrong.

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**Author:** ![damagedgoods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecd19e/32.png) [@damagedgoods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damagedgoods)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/98 "2012-12-18T23:43:51Z")

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Thought ya didn’t have much more to add?Ohh,I guess you didn’t.

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**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/99 "2012-12-18T23:49:42Z")

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> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> I do know there is an unsettling resemblance to these mass murders and the First Person shooter games.

No there’s not. First-person shooters are all about shooting enemies who are shooting back. That’s what makes them fun. A game where you wandered around slaughtering helpless victims would get boring very quickly.

I should know, because I’ve been the lead designer on several first-person shooters. I designed the original _Rainbow Six_, and the original _Ghost Recon_, and I have consulted on other shooters since. There’s no market for murder simulators. Most gamers want to be the hero (or at least a sympathetic antihero) and so games are designed so that the AIs you are shooting are clearly set up as bad guys: terrorists, Nazis, drug lords, gang members. And those bad guys fight back to make the game entertaining.

Here’s [an article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/17/ten-country-comparison-suggests-theres-little-or-no-link-between-video-games-and-gun-murders/) in the Washington Post with a country-by-country comparison between video game purchases and gun murders. There is no correlation.

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**Author:** ![damagedgoods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecd19e/32.png) [@damagedgoods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damagedgoods)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-ban-violent-computer-shooter-games/644210/100 "2012-12-19T00:19:52Z")

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Watch the movie “The Basketball Diary’s” w/ da idiot, I mean DiCaprio.In movie he was just fucked up on smack,he didn’t need no stinkn’ video games.I read orig. book by same name by Carroll but don’t 'member if scene was in the book.Book came out way b4 the movie ('78 and 94 respectively)my point bascilly is that a common thread won’t be found.we’re coming close to being so close to the over population-human sustainablity margin that what happened was sad yeah, but inevitable. What we gotta do is HELP THE MENTALY ILL AND DISABLED,instead of cutting sevice’s of help,which Reagon did such a fantastic job at.Less studying-more help.BTW,Texas?Ring a bell? Dude on a clocktower?Rifle?Dead people below? I don’t think he was too avid a player.

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