# Don't we have an obligation as a society to look at ways to curb gun violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871 "2012-11-23T04:16:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/201 "2012-12-16T03:32:35Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > It’s worth noting in these kinds of discussions that a sufficiently skilled metalsmith (say, on the level of a vo-tech shop class) can make a relatively reliable full-auto submachine gun pretty easily. Fixed-ping gas blowback submachine guns are frighteningly easy to manufacture, and will become officially trivial the minute we can do 3-d printing with anything other than plastic. You can already make precision metal parts, using computer drawings, in a CNC machine. There’s nothing special about 3D printing with respect to stuff made out of steel. Yet you see very few guns made on them. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/202 "2012-12-16T03:38:34Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > The problem is that nonlethal self defense methods often don’t work. That’s why the police don’t rely solely on them (although they do use them when they can). Alas, the Star Trek “phaser on stun” hasn’t been invented yet. Guns often dont work. They sometimes KILL innocent bystanders … often are used to KILL their owners. Taser and pepper spray … not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/203 "2012-12-16T03:39:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > and the worst POS handgun has a range that far outstrips pepper spray or a taser. 1. Ban guns. 2. Permit tasers and pepper spray. 3. Watch murder rates go down. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/204 "2012-12-16T03:42:13Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Agreed that the anomalously high rate of _all_ violence in America needs looking at, badly. Agreed that it needs to be looked at. Disagree that looking at it and banning guns is an either/or thing. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/205 "2012-12-16T03:47:03Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > 1. Ban guns. > 2. Permit tasers and pepper spray. > 3. Watch murder rates go down. hows that working out in Mexico? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/206 "2012-12-16T03:56:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You can already make precision metal parts, using computer drawings, in a CNC machine. There’s nothing special about 3D printing with respect to stuff made out of steel. > > Yet you see very few guns made on them. AK47’s are made by hand using primitive tools in [Pakistan](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT_d9-52D04). ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/207 "2012-12-16T04:07:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You can already make precision metal parts, using computer drawings, in a CNC machine. There’s nothing special about 3D printing with respect to stuff made out of steel. > > Yet you see very few guns made on them. Yeah, because it’s simpler to just go to the gun store. (and really, the kind of gun nut who has an idea how to put together a Sten is aware enough of its disadvantages to not want one unless in extremis.) I’d lay money on illicit manufactories for small arms to go into operation within a week after any gun ban and confiscation program of even moderate success. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/208 "2012-12-16T04:30:07Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Guns often dont work. They sometimes KILL innocent bystanders … often are used to KILL their owners. Taser and pepper spray … not so much. Guns pretty much always work. Pull the trigger, gun goes BANG! just like its supposed to. Bad guys aren’t resistant to bullets (as they can be to pepper spray), and bullets aren’t stopped by heavy clothing (as taser leads can be). And both tasters and pepper spray are strictly one-shot items, which makes them less useful if a person is facing more than one attacker. The other issues you mentioned are issues of training. Training in marksmanship (so the bullets go where you intend them to go), and training in situational awareness and weapon retention (so the bad guy never gets the chance to grab the gun). When nonlethal methods become so reliable that the police (more specifically patrol officers) are willing to rely on them exclusively, then so will I. That day’s not yet here (although as technology advances, it may one day arrive). ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/209 "2012-12-16T04:32:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You can already make precision metal parts, using computer drawings, in a CNC machine. There’s nothing special about 3D printing with respect to stuff made out of steel. > > Yet you see very few guns made on them. Right now 3-D printers are expensive. It’s cheaper to buy a commercially manufactured firearm. But I bet we’ll start to see changes as the cost of 3-D printers drops. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/210 "2012-12-16T04:40:06Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > Right now 3-D printers are expensive. It’s cheaper to buy a commercially manufactured firearm. But I bet we’ll start to see changes as the cost of 3-D printers drops. Well when 3D printers become, in essence, replicators, we’ll have a whole 'nother raft of problems to deal with. In the meantime, ban the actual problem, not the hazy future response to the ban which may or may not occur, and probably won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/211 "2012-12-16T04:45:47Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > Guns pretty much always work. Pull the trigger, gun goes BANG! just like its supposed to. Bad guys aren’t resistant to bullets (as they can be to pepper spray), and bullets aren’t stopped by heavy clothing (as taser leads can be). And both tasters and pepper spray are strictly one-shot items, which makes them less useful if a person is facing more than one attacker. > > The other issues you mentioned are issues of training. Training in marksmanship (so the bullets go where you intend them to go), and training in situational awareness and weapon retention (so the bad guy never gets the chance to grab the gun). Guns often are not aimed properly. [Often they hit innocent bystanders.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/25/empire-state-building-shooting-nypd-bullets-shot-all-nine_n_1830007.html) We’re talking the cops here, supposedly trained in marksmanship. They shot nine innocent people. Now maybe that’s what you think should happen. It’s not my idea of “success.” ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/212 "2012-12-16T04:47:15Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well when 3D printers become, in essence, replicators, we’ll have a whole 'nother raft of problems to deal with. In the meantime, ban the actual problem, not the hazy future response to the ban which may or may not occur, and probably won’t. Er, no. Any reasonably competent craftsperson NOW can build a full-auto firearm with minimal training. Which is exactly what will happen if a gun ban is attempted in this political climate. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/213 "2012-12-16T04:48:40Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > 1. Ban guns. > 2. Permit tasers and pepper spray. > 3. Watch murder rates go down. 1. Ban drugs 2. Arrest anyone attempting to bring in or sell drugs 3. Watch drug use go… 4. Er… 5. Profit!! ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/214 "2012-12-16T04:48:54Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Guns often are not aimed properly. [Often they hit innocent bystanders.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/25/empire-state-building-shooting-nypd-bullets-shot-all-nine_n_1830007.html) We’re talking the cops here, supposedly trained in marksmanship. You’d probably be surprised how many pro-gun types want a severe increase in the amount of training for cops who are carrying firearms on duty. Most police are woefully undertrained by any reasonable standard–I am a hobbyist who goes shooting clays a few times a year and I shoot literally eight times as many rounds in a few afternoons as the cops in my town are required to shoot yearly for training and recertification. Even most city cops shoot around 300 rounds a year in training–that’s not that much. I’ve gone through 150 rounds in a dedicated afternoon at the rifle range. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/215 "2012-12-16T04:54:59Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Guns often are not aimed properly. [Often they hit innocent bystanders.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/25/empire-state-building-shooting-nypd-bullets-shot-all-nine_n_1830007.html) We’re talking the cops here, supposedly trained in marksmanship. I’m glad you added that word “supposedly.”. News flash: most cops aren’t good shots. They don’t practice often enough. The few who ARE good marksmen are generally firearms enthusiasts and shoot regularly as a hobby, paying for their own ammo (instead of limiting themselves to the meager supply doled out by budget-strapped departments). Most experienced shooters avoid going to the range when the cops are there to qualify, because their gun handling skills can be so bad. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/216 "2012-12-16T05:05:22Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Er, no. Any reasonably competent craftsperson NOW can build a full-auto firearm with minimal training. Which is exactly what will happen if a gun ban is attempted in this political climate. When it happens, I’ll believe you. I just see handwaving here. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/217 "2012-12-16T05:10:27Z")
> [@XT](#): > > 1. Ban drugs > 2. Arrest anyone attempting to bring in or sell drugs > 3. Watch drug use go… > 4. Er… > 5. Profit!! yah, drugs are JUST THE SAME as guns. Both can only be used to kill peop … er … wait a minute … See, we can endure quite a bit of people being high as a kite in this country. People being massacred … a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/218 "2012-12-16T05:12:21Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > You’d probably be surprised how many pro-gun types want a severe increase in the amount of training for cops who are carrying firearms on duty. Most police are woefully undertrained by any reasonable standard–I am a hobbyist who goes shooting clays a few times a year and I shoot literally eight times as many rounds in a few afternoons as the cops in my town are required to shoot yearly for training and recertification. Even most city cops shoot around 300 rounds a year in training–that’s not that much. I’ve gone through 150 rounds in a dedicated afternoon at the rifle range. yeah, yeah. The problem still exists. I have heard that even soldiers in armies in trhe midst of wars have trouble deliberately killing enemy soldiers. Training the cops better woudl be nice, but geeze, no one seems to care. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/219 "2012-12-16T05:14:04Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > I’m glad you added that word “supposedly.”. News flash: most cops aren’t good shots. They don’t practice often enough. The few who ARE good marksmen are generally firearms enthusiasts and shoot regularly as a hobby, paying for their own ammo (instead of limiting themselves to the meager supply doled out by budget-strapped departments). Most experienced shooters avoid going to the range when the cops are there to qualify, because their gun handling skills can be so bad. Point is, my objection still stands. Guns are a dangerous and ineffective weapon. At least when a taser or pepper spray hits an innocent bystander, the results are rarely lethal, or even seriously injurious. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/220 "2012-12-16T05:15:41Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well when 3D printers become, in essence, replicators, we’ll have a whole 'nother raft of problems to deal with. In the meantime, ban the actual problem, not the hazy future response to the ban which may or may not occur, and probably won’t. since they don’t sell guns that actually kill people the problem would be the people themselves. Taking the guns away still leaves us with the problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871.md?page=12)