# Don't we have an obligation as a society to look at ways to curb gun violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871 "2012-11-23T04:16:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/261 "2012-12-17T14:18:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I was arguing against the point that guns- _any gun, all guns-_ have no other purpose other than the murder of humans. Hunting is a much more major purpose of guns that murder is. > > But yes, thank you for supporting my argument. I don’t know what your point is but I get it - you love guns. My single point is that saving the USA from the Red Deer Terror does not require a citizenry tooled up for a real life re-run of Red Dawn. It can be done with licensed hunters using limited weaponry. But it’s way too late to do anything about guns in the USA. Apparently the sky would fall in if every single adult couldn’t arm themselves like a small African nation. Fair enough. If I was in America I’d have myself a whole bunch of guns too. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/262 "2012-12-17T15:57:27Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Apparently the sky would fall in if every single adult couldn’t arm themselves like a small African nation. A common misconception: In the civil war-torn nations of Africa its the army and the rebels who are armed, and a huge mass of unarmed civilians victimized from both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/263 "2012-12-17T16:04:30Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > A common misconception: In the civil war-torn nations of Africa its the army and the rebels who are armed, and a huge mass of unarmed civilians victimized from both sides. And what makes you think that? Guns don’t protect people from tyranny; plenty of dictatorships have no problem with people being armed, it does them no good. Saddam for example; we actually made a point of confiscating guns from the citizenry, while he didn’t bother. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/264 "2012-12-17T16:05:20Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > A common misconception: In the civil war-torn nations of Africa its the army and the rebels who are armed, and a huge mass of unarmed civilians victimized from both sides. Clearly all of Africa’s problems stem from there not being enough guns swilling around. Someone should tell Bill Gates. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/265 "2012-12-17T16:09:10Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Absolutely. That’s why here in the UK we barely dare step outside our front doors for fear of being eaten alive by wolves or trampled to death by giant roaming hordes of deer of various hues. I recognize you’re being silly, but seriously, my home state has more deer than your entire country, and significantly more poorly-lit rural roads and small farms. Damage from deer due to car accidents and crop damage is an actual economic issue here. Hell, even the UK culls 350,000 deer a year or thereabouts to keep the population steady. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/266 "2012-12-17T16:12:04Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Clearly all of Africa’s problems stem from there not being enough guns swilling around. Someone should tell Bill Gates. Well who knows? Right now guerrillas can move into a village, execute the head of the village for supporting the government, steal food from people who are already hungry, rape a few women, and recruit some 12-year old boys at gunpoint. Maybe if every adult in that village had a least a revolver things would go differently. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/267 "2012-12-17T16:17:51Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Well who knows? Right now guerrillas can move into a village, execute the head of the village for supporting the government, steal food from people who are already hungry, rape a few women, and recruit some 12-year old boys at gunpoint. Maybe if every adult in that village had a least a revolver things would go differently. No, it wouldn’t, as I already pointed out. The rebels could outright hand out guns beforehand and it wouldn’t do anything. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/268 "2012-12-18T06:23:35Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2704353/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2704353/) Thanks! Here’s the relevant quote. > [@](#): > > In the 18 years before the gun law reforms, there were 13 mass shootings in Australia, and none in the 10.5 years afterwards. **Declines in firearm‐related deaths before the law reforms accelerated after the reforms for total firearm deaths (p=0.04), firearm suicides (p=0.007) and firearm homicides (p=0.15)**, but not for the smallest category of unintentional firearm deaths, which increased. No evidence of substitution effect for suicides or homicides was observed. **The rates per 100000 of total firearm deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides all at least doubled their existing rates of decline after the revised gun laws.** **Dr. Deth** - your attempted rebuttal is already addressed(emphasis mine) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/269 "2012-12-18T14:09:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How much of it’s budget does HCI or the Brady Center spend on “improving mental health care and reducing systemic racism and poverty”? I don’t know. They are, however, attempting to curb gun violence by pressing for gun bans/registration, so they are doing SOMETHING to deal with the problem, instead of making it worse, as the NRA does. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/270 "2012-12-18T14:49:19Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I don’t know. They are, however, attempting to curb gun violence by pressing for gun bans/registration, so they are doing SOMETHING to deal with the problem, instead of making it worse, as the NRA does. The cry to do “something” -ANYTHING- leads to security theater. No politician who wants to be reelected is going to dare say “beyond certain reasonable measures, there’s always going to be a residue of crime and violence that can’t effectively be prevented”. If the something actually does deal with the problem, that’s another story. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/271 "2012-12-18T16:19:13Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I don’t know. They are, however, attempting to curb gun violence by pressing for gun bans/registration, so they are doing SOMETHING to deal with the problem, instead of making it worse, as the NRA does. Ah, “something”, like for example the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban which A) didn’t actually meaningfully limit firepower or capacity of weapons available on the market and B) galvanized opposition to gun control of any kind on the grounds that the people implementing it demonstrably (by the mere fact the text of the AWB existed) didn’t understand the first thing about firearms and therefore couldn’t be trusted to regulate them. Even an organization as anti-gun as the Violence Policy Center thought that shit was a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/272 "2012-12-18T23:28:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And what makes you think that? Guns don’t protect people from tyranny; plenty of dictatorships have no problem with people being armed, it does them no good. Saddam for example; we actually made a point of confiscating guns from the citizenry, while he didn’t bother. Saddam Hussein died at the hands of his own people. And before you try and say we deposed him consider that he was once the commander of the 3rd largest standing army in the world. Those people were still there after the war as were their guns. they could easily have reestablished his reign of terror. They did not. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/273 "2012-12-19T01:05:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Saddam Hussein died at the hands of his own people. And before you try and say we deposed him consider that he was once the commander of the 3rd largest standing army in the world. Those people were still there after the war as were their guns. they could easily have reestablished his reign of terror. They did not. Am I the only one who remembers that his giant army (which was not the third biggest in the world in 2003, and which was pathetically, hopelessly inept as compared to a Western army) was destroyed by the armed forces of the United States? And that the reason Hussein died at the hands of his own people was solely because American arms made it possible? And as for a reign of terror, am I mistaken in my recollection that the immediate result of Hussein’s regime topping was a years-long insurgency and civil war of ferocious violence that killed thousands upon thousands of people? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/274 "2012-12-19T01:29:34Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > It’s tough to have an “honest” conversation when you’re poisoning the well from the beginning. After all, it’s more than a little unfair to accuse only one side as being the one preventing honest conversation from occurring. Not on this topic, it isn’t, **Odesio,** and you know it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/275 "2012-12-19T01:58:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Saddam Hussein died at the hands of his own people. He died because we wanted him dead and invaded. His own well armed people never deposed him because they couldn’t; Saddam didn’t bother with restricting guns because he knew that an armed populace was no threat to him. An armed populace is only a threat to itself. > [@Magiver](#): > > And before you try and say we deposed him consider that he was once the commander of the 3rd largest standing army in the world. Those people were still there after the war as were their guns. they could easily have reestablished his reign of terror. They did not. Oh please. We destroyed their government, their armed forces, their economy and left their nation a crippled wreck. They were too busy fighting us, each other and just trying to survive to re-establish anything. Not that they could have, because we’d have killed them for trying. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/276 "2012-12-19T02:00:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the NRA doesn’t exist to promote mental health issues. At least, not intentionally. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/277 "2012-12-19T02:25:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Am I the only one who remembers that his giant army (which was not the third biggest in the world in 2003, and which was pathetically, hopelessly inept as compared to a Western army) was destroyed by the armed forces of the United States? And that the reason Hussein died at the hands of his own people was solely because American arms made it possible? And as for a reign of terror, am I mistaken in my recollection that the immediate result of Hussein’s regime topping was a years-long insurgency and civil war of ferocious violence that killed thousands upon thousands of people? Sorry, 4th largest Army in the world with 49 battle field divisions. [cite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Armed_Forces#1991_Gulf_War_and_lead_up_to_2003_invasion) And no you don’t remember them being destroyed. They were defeated. They still existed after the Gulf War and were certainly available to support Suddam if they so chose to. And no you don’t remember Hussein dying at the hands of his people solely because American arms made it possible. The Iraqis who were once part of his 49 field divisions didn’t just evaporate. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/278 "2012-12-19T03:34:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Sorry, 4th largest Army in the world with 49 battle field divisions. [cite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Armed_Forces#1991_Gulf_War_and_lead_up_to_2003_invasion) > > And no you don’t remember them being destroyed. They were defeated. They still existed after the Gulf War and were certainly available to support Suddam if they so chose to. > > And no you don’t remember Hussein dying at the hands of his people solely because American arms made it possible. The Iraqis who were once part of his 49 field divisions didn’t just evaporate. Oh, you’re talking about 1991, when everyone else was talking about 2003. Why on earth would you think Der Trihs was saying the US confiscated guns from the Iraqis if he wasn’t referring to 2003, the war in which the USA conquered Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/279 "2012-12-19T04:31:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Oh, you’re talking about 1991, when everyone else was talking about 2003. Why on earth would you think Der Trihs was saying the US confiscated guns from the Iraqis if he wasn’t referring to 2003, the war in which the USA conquered Iraq? the point remains the same. The soldiers under his army didn’t go away. As we can see from what followed after the war the guns certainly didn’t disappear whether they were hidden or new ones brought in. If his people were actually loyal to him he would be alive today. He was a tyrant. He ruled through fear and his power was illusory which he eventually learned the hard way. You cannot rule a nation if the people rise up. You can see it in the fall of the Soviet Union and other countries. You can see it in the Arab Spring. We’re watching it in Syria right now. People are standing up against a government. What happened in Iraq certainly didn’t go unnoticed by the surrounding countries. Yes you can say we helped those rebelling in places like Libya but the boots on the ground are the people who live there. When the Founding Fathers talked about tyranny they spoke about it first hand. They lived it. This thread was generated because a deranged person decided to slaughter a school full of children. An amendment and a gun is being blamed instead of that person. You may think it impossible for tyranny to exist in the United States but progenitors of the Constitution knew that absent a system to counter it there is nothing preventing this from happening. As we debate this topic The US Attorney General [approved the gathering and storage of information on citizens without cause](http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/12/gov-dossiers-on-us-citizens/). There was a time when people at least questioned this type of behavior from a government. So yes, be outraged that a crazy person killed children by steeling a gun and shooting them like fish in a barrel. But don’t be surprised and indignant when people challenge attempts to alter the 2nd amendment. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/280 "2012-12-19T05:04:11Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I don’t know what your point is but I get it - you love guns. . I don’t actually. What I love is the Constitution. In my whole life I have owned only a couple of .22 rifles and my service weapon, both of which would be legal there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871.md?page=15)