# Don't we have an obligation as a society to look at ways to curb gun violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871 "2012-11-23T04:16:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/81 "2012-11-23T22:55:11Z")
> [@Gerald\_II](#): > > I enjoy it as well but when companies are mass marketing it to mainstream audiences, including children, I think there’s a problem. So the first rule of _Fight Club_ (and movies like that) is nobody markets _Fight Club_ (and movies like that)? This was brought up before but unless they market movies and pop culture less in Canada and in other countries differently with similar cultures but vastly different gun violence statistics, this whole pop culture boogeyman doesn’t sway me as a viable way to curb gun violence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/82 "2012-11-23T22:55:45Z")
> [@Modern\_Master](#): > > What about it? You said we need to build more prisons and release non-violent offenders. What else am I supposed to be looking for exactly? What you missed? Maybe, you should re-read my post, champ. 😉 > > You mentioned building new prisons to house “newbies” (as you so artfully put it). That’ll work out great, because (ya know?) cheap labor. Read it again “Champ”-I wasn’t advocating new prisoners and new prisons-I was pointing out that such paths are yet another problem to be solved. If more people are put in prison for gun violence, where do we put people that are already there-our prison system are already a mess as it is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/83 "2012-11-23T22:56:14Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Actually, whatever we’re doing seems to be working. [US crime rate at lowest point in decades:](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0109/US-crime-rate-at-lowest-point-in-decades.-Why-America-is-safer-now) Yet we are still high compared to the rest of the world. Everything is relative, but nobody seems to be catching up to us yet. ---
**Author:** ![Modern\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@Modern\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Modern_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/84 "2012-11-23T23:01:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Read it again “Champ”-I wasn’t advocating new prisoners and new prisons-I was pointing out that such paths are yet another problem to be solved. If more people are put in prison for gun violence, where do we put people that are already there-our prison system are already a mess as it is. Oh well. That’s my mistake then. Use correct punctuation, please (i.e. question marks). It makes it easier to read when you do. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/85 "2012-11-23T23:03:28Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > So the first rule of _Fight Club_ (and movies like that) is nobody markets _Fight Club_ (and movies like that)? I don’t remember how Fight Club was marketed. I do remember when Terminator 2 came out, Marvel put out the comic book, the video game was sold at Toys R Us, as well as having an action figure line. > [@](#): > > This was brought up before but unless they market movies and pop culture less in Canada and in other countries differently with similar cultures but vastly different gun violence statistics, this whole pop culture boogeyman doesn’t sway me as a viable way to curb gun violence. Although Canada and the US share a similar overall western culture, I would like to see the ethnic, economic, and historical differences between the two before I write off any possible contribution from overly violent media. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/86 "2012-11-23T23:07:23Z")
> [@Modern\_Master](#): > > While you’re at it, you might as well tell them they need to stop reading violent books, looking at violent paintings, watching violent news stories and/or documentaries, etc. Are violent books and violent paintings really mass marketed to the mainstream public the way film, music and television is? And news and documentaries about violence are very different from fictional accounts of the hero righteously killing the bad guys with an assortment of guns. Usually the news and documentaries highlight the victims of violence while movies tend not to do that. When the hero has a shoot out in public, he never accidentally kills a bystander. Or a stray shot doesn’t end up killing someone miles away. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/87 "2012-11-23T23:08:27Z")
You don’t need Gun Control, you need to have control of your need for guns. I wouldn’t want a complete ban on any gun, because that would obviously never work. Thing is, if anyone was to try and arrange a “Go without your weapon for a month” campaign, groups like the NRA would throw a fit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/88 "2012-11-23T23:08:53Z")
> [@Gerald\_II](#): > > I don’t remember how Fight Club was marketed. It was a joke. Although you not getting it proves that you don’t know how it was marketed… > [@](#): > > Although Canada and the US share a similar overall western culture, I would like to see the ethnic, economic, and historical differences between the two before I write off any possible contribution from overly violent media. So you’d like to see if movie marketing is not a factor before you look at movie marketing as a factor. Brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/89 "2012-11-23T23:15:20Z")
No because like I said, I think that violent media helps reinforce violent behavior. And I question how similar they are. And if Canada is not nearly as similar to the US as it’s claimed, that makes a difference. For example, I don’t expect the rap album I mentioned earlier to have an effect on a white, upper class neighborhood in Canada. However, in an area with a predominant Mexican-American population and a high concentration of gangs it helped raise the homicide rate as well as gang recruitment. I think various factors play into the high rate of violent crime in the US, and mass marketed violent media I think is just one of the contributing factors. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/90 "2012-11-23T23:16:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why? What makes gun violence so damn special? Is having a schoolbus bombed or being chopped apart by a machete in any way preferable? > > If we reduce shootings, just to have an equal number of dudes killed by being stabbed, etc nothing has been gained. > > What we need to do is reduce violent crimes, and gun violence will be reduced along with it. We have, as noted, already reduced crime, overall. Your first two paragraphs are simply unrelated to the real world. In particular, your claim that reducing shooting deaths would be matched by a corresponding increase in other forms of violent death is ludicrously unrealistic. The kid in my county who wandered into a school cafeteria and murdered three students, wounding a couple of others, would not have had the same body count if he had had to actually strike them with a weapon from which they could defend themselves or even run from. I am a supporter of the 2d Amendment and I do not have any “magic bullet” (_heh_) to address the issue of gun violence, but the claim that anyone who wished to inflict harm would successfully inflict the same level of harm if they did not have a firearm is just dumb. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/91 "2012-11-23T23:19:33Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Yet we are still high compared to the rest of the world. Everything is relative, but nobody seems to be catching up to us yet. USA ranks about 108th out of 208 nations, according to UN figures. Pretty much square in the middle, eh? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/92 "2012-11-23T23:25:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > We have, as noted, already reduced crime, overall. > > Your first two paragraphs are simply unrelated to the real world. > > In particular, your claim that reducing shooting deaths would be matched by a corresponding increase in other forms of violent death is ludicrously unrealistic. The kid in my county who wandered into a school cafeteria and murdered three students, wounding a couple of others, would not have had the same body count if he had had to actually strike them with a weapon from which they could defend themselves or even run from. > > I. Googling “Mass murder by machete” brings up many, many instances, and that’s just machetes. > **[St. Petersburg Times - Google News Archive Search](https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=19710528&id=TwgwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=33UDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7166,1745296)** > **[The Jungle Massacre: African rebels who revel in their machete](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/the-jungle-massacre-african-rebels-who-revel-in-their-machete-genocide-1077954.html)** > > THE HUTU rebels' trademark is death by machete. Five years ago the same murderous militiamen were raping, hacking and bludgeoning their way across Rwanda, at the vanguard of the genocide in which at least 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus died. How about bombs? How does your kid in the cafeteria defend himself from a bomb? Besides mass murder is rare. Quick & solitary killing are far more common, and there a knife works perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/93 "2012-11-23T23:36:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > USA ranks about 108th out of 208 nations, according to UN figures. Pretty much square in the middle, eh? Depends on [what countries you are comparing us to](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States), I guess… > [@](#): > > Gun-related death rates in the United States are eight times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it. Higher rates are found in developing countries and those with political instability. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/94 "2012-11-23T23:38:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am a supporter of the 2d Amendment and I do not have any “magic bullet” (_heh_) to address the issue of gun violence, but the claim that anyone who wished to inflict harm would successfully inflict the same level of harm if they did not have a firearm is just dumb. I agree with this statement. If gun supporters don’t, why don’t they all just get machetes instead? I mean, since they are so comparable. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/95 "2012-11-24T00:17:20Z")
Actually violence is no longer decreasing in the United States. According to a bulletin from the USA Department of Justice dated October 2012 there has been a steady rise in violent crime since 2010. The bulletin says a 17% increase. So we have lost that good momentum that we had since the nineties. It stalled around 2008 and began to rise two years ago. I have thoughts about how we raise, particularly, our male children in this country. But that’s a whole book by itself. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/96 "2012-11-24T00:24:52Z")
I remember in the 70s-80s people were saying that increasingly realistic violence in entertainment was bad for the children. Then there were studies done which indicated that it had little influence. It would be interesting to know how those studies were conducted and who sponsored them. At any rate it’s refreshing to hear others acknowledging that the depiction of some types of violence may have a harmful effect on children susceptible to it. Perhaps the subject of personality development holds some answers. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/97 "2012-11-24T00:36:14Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Actually, whatever we’re doing seems to be working. [US crime rate at lowest point in decades:](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0109/US-crime-rate-at-lowest-point-in-decades.-Why-America-is-safer-now) > > The article goes on to suggest possible reasons for the drop in crime to be increased incarceration, improved law enforcement strategies (including better technology), the end of the cheap crack cocaine epidemic from the 80s, and that the population is getting older. (The article expresses more skepticism about the suggestion that legalizing abortion has played a major role in lower crime rates.) You know what else correlates to the drop in crime? I found this amazing but perfectly plausible: [leaded gasoline](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead#Toxicity). ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/98 "2012-11-24T01:23:26Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > I remember in the 70s-80s people were saying that increasingly realistic violence in entertainment was bad for the children. Then there were studies done which indicated that it had little influence. It would be interesting to know how those studies were conducted and who sponsored them. > > At any rate it’s refreshing to hear others acknowledging that the depiction of some types of violence may have a harmful effect on children susceptible to it. Perhaps the subject of personality development holds some answers. I’m more interested in knowing who does all the studies that weigh supposed positives of gun ownership against the negatives of their availability and comes out strongly in favour of the positive side. More interestingly, who finances them? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/99 "2012-11-24T01:26:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The homicide rate in Mexico is nearly six times that of the USA, despite the fact that México has strict gun control laws. Bermuda has a Homicide rate that is 3 x the USA. Not culturally similar. > [@Gerald\_II](#): > > Canada would seem to have different demographics than the US which would highlight differences. 28% of the US population are minorities with Latinos and Blacks compromising the majority of that percentage, whereas Canada has 16% of it’s population being made up of minorities, mostly, if wikipedia is correct, is made up of Asians. [Here.](http://www.toronto.ca/toronto_facts/diversity.htm) > [@](#): > > Toronto, with a population of 2.48 million people (5.5 million in the GTA - Greater Toronto Area) is heralded as one of the most multicultural cities in the world and is ranked as the safest large metropolitan area in North America by Places Rated Almanac. Over 140 languages and dialects are spoken here, and just over 30 per cent of Toronto residents speak a language other than English or French at home. > [@](#): > > In 2006, the City of Toronto was home to 8 per cent of Canada’s population, 30 per cent of all recent immigrants and 20 per cent of all immigrants. Here. > [@](#): > > Critics say the reappearance of some of those arrested in previous investigations underscores a reality: it costs millions and millions of dollars to make mass arrests but street gangs continue to flourish and illicit drug use continues unabated. So, Toronto, one of the most multicultural cities in the world, with a preponderance of immigrants, and street gangs is ranked as “the safest large metropolitan area in North America” and control of hand guns is not relevant here? I can’t see why anyone could dispute the evidence. I can keep coming back and quoting multiple sites if you wish. Hand guns kill people. Countries of similar cultures have much higher homicide rates entirely due to the availability of hand guns. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/100 "2012-11-24T01:47:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Googling “Mass murder by machete” brings up many, many instances, and that’s just machetes. > [St. Petersburg Times - Google News Archive Search](http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=19710528&id=TwgwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=33UDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7166,1745296) > > [The Jungle Massacre: African rebels who revel in their machete genocide | The Independent | The Independent](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/the-jungle-massacre-african-rebels-who-revel-in-their-machete-genocide-1077954.html) > > How about bombs? How does your kid in the cafeteria defend himself from a bomb? > Besides mass murder is rare. Quick & solitary killing are far more common, and there a knife works perfectly. That is your defense of your claim? A single 41 year old example of a serial killer and an organized gang on a totally different continent who surrounded villages to kill people in mass attacks during a civil war? You have effectively proven my point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871.md?page=6)